What I am saying is that Islam should not proclaim to be truth and that Judaism/Christianity is false. If you believe that your religion is correct, you should at least acknowledge other people's right to believe as they wish. The Golden Rule seems to not apply in the case of Muslims--which is the double standard to which this thread is directed.
Additionally Islam should not be spread through violence--if you believe otherwise, then the statement is still directed at you. Provide a logical moral foundation for such a belief. If Allah truly was disgusted by infidels why does he allow them to prosper while Islamic countries remain in poverty? Have you not thought of how silly you seem when you blame all of mankind's ills on the rascally Jews and infidels? Earthquake machine? Are you serious? You've got to have a screw lose...
How about all of the good that eminates from Western and Jewish culture? Why would a just God allow the unbelievers to develop technology, knowledge, arts, etc. while Muslims do well to put food on the table? Is God unjust? Does he not care about his believers? Could it be that the West does well because it is not Muslim? Could it be that all of the good (and the bad) that comes out of the West is because of the freedom we have? Perhaps God rewards us for what we do with our freedom?
Dear brother of the Umma Mohideen,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah
I was afraid that perhaps I had gone too far with my questions and that you would not answer...but Insha-Allah , Allah (swt)has seen fit to provide succur and favour upon me...and you did not abandon your sister.
I know that you need time to reflect on the questions I posed...this is most important to me...so please take your time..do not let the infedel hurry you ....but please attempt to answer them.
I was telling Anwer about my emeetings with you... and Masha-Allah he sends his wishes and every success on more Koranic miracles, you have worked hard.
The one aspect I feel very emotional about is this. Do you think that I am being punished for such impure thoughts? Why should Anwer suffer if I am the guilty one? I cannot sleep when he coughs in pain and sometimes I cry myself to sleep. Do you think Allah sees this, it is I who should suffer? I try hard with dawa here in Pak and the UK when I go.
I know you may not have the answers, but I feel you are at a higher plane in your Islamic quest than I and your opinion may help my emotional state.
Note that I am not really looking for sympathy...but an islamic viewpoint may help.
Dear sister Naseem,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah.
I never heard that the moon generates its own light. Could you please give the reference? For the present, I offer the following:
From http://www.solarviews.com/eng/moon.htm we have:
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Moon Statistics
Mean surface temperature (day) 107°C
Mean surface temperature (night) -153°C
Maximum surface temperature 123°C
Minimum surface temperature -233°C
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In our homes we use fire to boil water. The moon has mean day surface temperature of 107 degrees Centigrade which is hotter than the boiling point of water. So, in that sense, the moon is indeed fiery!
The following http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=+Kahf+year&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all we have:
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An-Nawwas b. Sam'an reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made a mention of the Dajjal one day in the morning. He sometimes described him to be insignificant and sometimes described (his turmoil) as very significant rand we felt) as if he were in the cluster of the date-palm trees. When we went to him (to the Holy Prophet) in the evening and he read (the signs of fear) in our faces, he said: What is the matter with you? We said: Allah's Messenger, you made a mention of the Dajjal in the morning (sometimes describing him) to be insignificant and sometimes very important, until we began to think as if he were present in some (near) part of the cluster of the datpalm trees. Thereupon he said: I harbour fear in regard to you in so many other things besides the Dajjal. If he comes forth while I am among on, I shall contend with him on your behalf, but if he comes forth while I am not amongst you, a man must contend on his own behalf and Allah would take care of every Muslim on my behalf (and safeguard him against his evil). He (Dajjal) would be a young man with twisted, contracted hair, and a blind eye. I compare him to 'Abd-ul-'Uzza b. Qatan. He who amongst you would survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Sura Kahf (xviii.). He would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah's Messenger, how long would he stay on the earth? He said.. For forty days, one day like a year and one day like a month and one day like a week and the rest of the days would be like your days. We said: Allah's Messenger, would one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer). We said: Allah's Messenger, how quickly would he walk upon the earth? Thereupon he said: Like cloud driven by the wind. He would come to the people and invite them (to a wrong religion) and they would affirm their faith in him and respond to him. He would then give command to the sky and there would be rainfall upon the earth and it would grow crops. Then in the evening, their posturing animals would come to them with their humps very high and their udders full of milk and their flanks stretched. He would then come to another people and invite them. But they would reject him and he would go away from them and there would be drought for them and nothing would be lef t with them in the form of wealth. He would then walk through the waste, land and say to it: Bring forth your treasures, and the treasures would come out and collect (themselves) before him like the swarm of bees. He would then call a person brimming with youth and strike him with the sword and cut him into two pieces and (make these pieces lie at a distance which is generally) between the archer and his target. He would then call (that young man) and he will come forward laughing with his face gleaming (with happiness) and it would at this very time that Allah would send Christ, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damscus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. Every non-believer who would smell the odour of his self would die and his breath would reach as far as he would be able to see. He would then search for him (Dajjal) until he would catch hold of him at the gate of Ludd and would kill him. Then a people whom Allah had protected would come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he would wipe their faces and would inform them of their ranks in Paradise and it would be under such conditions that Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah would send Gog and Magog and they would swarm down from every slope. The first of them would pass the lake of Tibering and drink out of it. And when the last of them would pass, he would say: There was once water there. Jesus and his companions would then be besieged here (at Tur, and they would be so much hard pressed) that the head of the ox would be dearer to them than one hundred dinirs and Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would supplicate Allah, Who would send to them insects (which would attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish like one single person. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then come down to the earth and they would not find in the earth as much space as a single span which is not filled with their putrefaction and stench. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then again beseech Allah, Who would send birds whose necks would be like those of bactrin camels and they would carry them and throw them where God would will. Then Allah would send rain which no house of clay or (the tent of) camels' hairs would keep out and it would wash away the earth until it could appear to be a mirror. Then the earth would be told to bring forth its fruit and restore its blessing and, as a result thereof, there would grow (such a big) pomegranate that a group of persons would be able to eat that, and seek shelter under its skin and milch cow would give so much milk that a whole party would be able to drink it. And the milch camel would give such (a large quantity of) milk that the whole tribe would be able to drink out of that and the milch sheep would give so much milk that the whole family would be able to drink out of that and at that time Allah would send a pleasant wind which would soothe (people) even under their armpits, and would take the life of every Muslim and only the wicked would survive who would commit adultery like asses and the Last Hour would come to them. (Book #041, Hadith #7015) (Sahih Muslim)
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Now there is a hue and cry regarding global warming. When Dajjal appears the surface temperature during a day like a month would appear to be like that of the moon. Where is the infidel technology to survive such a temperature for 15 days in one go and survive?
Dajjal? You must mean Muhammad...I know full well that the earth was not boiling when Muhammad walked the earth--yes, he lived in a desert, but it wasn't that hot.
Don't try to argue logic while quoting apocolyptic literature--from any faith. Hopefully there aren't Christians who will start quoting Revelation...
I find it humerous that you state that 107°C is hot--the boiling point for water, yes...but not that hot in the cosmic scheme of things. Most flames burn much hotter. By the way, how do you know how hot it is on the moon anyway? Could it be that the West observed it through rational thought and science?
Naseem -
You earlier asked if Allah saw fit to punish you for questioning your faith by inflicting pain upon your husband. I find it very sad that you would think such a thing. I believe that you stated earlier that he almost died in the earthquake. Well, he did not die--while others did. Did the ones who perished (or their questioning wives) do something even more disturbing to deserve death? The fact is that bad things happen to good people--it has been that way for all time. Theologians have attempted to answer why for almost as long as religion has been around. The question, "if God is just, how can bad people be rewarded while good people receive torment?"
The Jews have had to ask this question for far longer and far more consistently than almost anyone else. The book of Job (the Muslim Ayyub) is probably the best testament for what the Jews perceive is the reason behind these trials. They believe that your faith is made stronger if held steadfastly through trying times and that there is indeed reward in the end if you maintain your faith.
Personally I feel that neither God not Satan sends the many awesome disasters that befall man. Science has told us many things about why such things occur. What is more for mankind to deal with is the constant trials that we bring upon ourselves. Why must people quarrel? Why must people commit wrongdoing when they know wrong from right? These are the true questions that are best answered through faith--unfortunately I feel that Islam causes more strife and turmoil today than any other source. Indeed, Muslims are told that it's good to suffer and good to die--must be a lot of good in the Muslim world then--so much that they like to share with others...I wish they wouldn't.
Dearest brother of the Umma Mohideen,
Your sister says Assalamau-Laikumou & to all interested infedels,
Here is the reference to the moon being a fiery ball (i.e. a sun) that you asked for.
Tabari I:233 “I heard Ka'b the Rabbi tell a marvelous story about the sun and the moon. He said the sun and moon will be like two hamstrung oxen flung into hell.
“Ibn Abbas said: ‘You want me to tell you what I heard the Messenger say about the sun and moon and the beginning of creation and how things went with them.' We said, ‘We would.'”
“When the Messenger was asked about that, he replied, ‘When Allah was done with His creation and only Adam remained to be created,
He created two suns from the light of His Throne. His foreknowledge told Him that He would efface one and change it to a moon; so the moon is smaller in size than the sun.'”
“Muhammad continued, ‘If Allah had left THE TWO SUNS as He created them, night would not have been distinguishable from day. A fasting person would not know when he must fast. A woman would not know how to reckon the period of her impurity. Muslims would not know the time of the pilgrimage. Allah was too concerned with His slaves to do such a thing.”
Tabari I:234 “Allah thus sent Gabriel to drag his wing three times OVER THE FACE OF THE MOON, WHICH AT THE TIME WAS A SUN.
HE EFFACED ITS LUMINOSITY AND LEFT THE LIGHT IN IT. This is what Allah means: [in Qur'an 17:12] ‘We have blotted out the sign of the night, and We have made the sign of the day something to see by.' The blackness you can see as lines on the moon is a trace of the blotting.”
Mohideen is a well respected teacher, and by all means exchange dialogue ...but there is no need to be rude to the 1st muslim that I have come across who will accept Ahmadis as muslims ...one that has brought significant understanding of Islam to this infedel blog.
This blog is all the better for it ...a bit of respect please.
Dear sister Naseem,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah
Consider the following Verse 86 of Chapter 18 of the Holy Quran from http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=18&mac=
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Yusuf Ali 86: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
Shakir 86: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
Pickthal 86: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
M. Khan 86: Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."
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and
Verse 38 of Chapter 36 of the Holy Quran from http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=36&mac=
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Yusuf Ali 38: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
Shakir 38: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Pickthal 38: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
M. Khan 38: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
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and the explanation of Verse 38 of Chapter 36 of the Holy Quran given by the following Tradition from http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=prostrates+return&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
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Narrated Abu Dhar: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38) (Book #54, Hadith #421) (Sahih Bukhari)
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For an American living in San Fransisco the sun sets in the sea. However for an American living in Louisville, KY the sun sets on land. What? Sun sets in sea and also land??? The correct interpretation of Verse 86 of Chapter 18 of the Holy Quran is that Dhul Qarnain traveled west until he reached a sea shore. There was a spring of sea water, possibly a geyser from under the sea throwing water up.
Verse 38 of Chapter 36 of the Holy Quran and its explanation in the Tradition quoted above simply paraphrases the following:
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The sun that rises from the east and sets in the west due to the rotation of the earth in its axis would reverse direction before the Day of Judgment. The rotation of the earth would be reversed; just before this reversal of the rotation of the earth, the permission to sun to continue its normal course would be denied. Because of this change in direction of rotation of the earth, the sun that used to rise in the east would rise in the west.
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Does light travel in a straight line or along a curve? To a school child it travels in a straight line. To a theoretical physicist, as light gets bent by the black hole, it sometimes travels along a curve. Is it right to argue that the teacher in school is wrong? A teacher fashions his message in such a way that it would be understood by the listener. Same applies to God Almighty. The Verses and the Tradition quoted above were instantly understood by the Companions of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, when science was no where. Now that God Almighty has guided mankind to attain fine details about the universe, we interpret the above in the light of our enhanced knowledge. Light travels in a straight line for a kid, whereas it travels in a curve for the researcher.
Dear sister Naseem,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah.
Thanks for giving the references. Please see “7. Consistency: Ever present test of authenticity,” in http://spaces.msn.com/deentech/ The contents of the above two Traditions do not seem to violate any information (very small indeed) that I know. The above two describe the events during the ‘Big Bang’ and to my humble mind beyond the pale of science.
I try to restrict the field of Tradition to the ones given in ALIM CD. They are: Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawood, Muwatta, Tirmidhi, Qudsi, and Fiqh-us-Sunnah. This is just to save my time and not search for a Tradition with one of the posters in a place that I do not have immediate access. That is why; I try to give a link to the quotes if there is a link. The link could be opened and my quote could be verified.
In the ALIM CD I performed a search on – sun moon – which returned 41 Traditions: 28 from Sahih Bukhari, 4 from Sahih Muslim, none from Abu Dawood, 4 from Muwatta, 1 Tirmidhi, none from Qudsi, and 4 from Fiqh-us-Sunnah. None of them refer to the process of creating the sun and the moon as given in the Traditions given by you. From among the 41, I would like to present the following 4 Traditions in two groups.
From http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=eclipse+ibrahim+sun&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all we have:
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(1) Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba: "The sun eclipsed in the life-time of Allah's Apostle on the day when (his son) ibrahim died. So the people said that the sun had eclipsed because of the death of ibrahim. Allah's Apostle said, "The sun and the moon do not eclipse because of the death or life (i.e. birth) of some-one. When you see the eclipse pray and invoke Allah." (Book #18, Hadith #153) (Sahih Bukhari)
(2) Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba : On the day of ibrahim's death, the sun eclipsed and the people said that the eclipse was due to the death of ibrahim (the son of the Prophet). Allah's Apostle said, "The sun and the moon are two signs amongst the signs of Allah. They do not eclipse because of someone's death or life. So when you see them, invoke Allah and pray till the eclipse is clear." (Book #18, Hadith #168) (Sahih Bukhari)
(3) Narrated Abu Bakra: In the life-time of the Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) the sun eclipsed and he went out dragging his clothes till he reached the Mosque. The people gathered around him and he led them and offered two Rakat. When the sun (eclipse) cleared, he said, "The sun and the moon are two signs amongst the signs of Allah; they do not eclipse because of the death of someone, and so when an eclipse occurs, pray and invoke Allah till the eclipse is over." It happened that a son of the Prophet called ibrahim died on that day and the people were talking about that (saying that the eclipse was caused by his death). (Book #18, Hadith #170) (Sahih Bukhari)
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The above three Traditions show that even during a day in which his son died, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, desired to guide his followers to the right path.
From http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=sun+moon+folded&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
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Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The sun and the moon will be folded up (deprived of their light) on the Day of Resurrection." (Book #54, Hadith #422) (Sahih Bukhari)
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The above Tradition possibly refers to the reverse of the Big Bang.
Allah knows best.
he earth is flat
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM How are the worshippers aligned just next to the Holy Kabaa? In a circle. How are they aligned in the Masjid in Medina? In a straight line.
In mathematics, we derive the direction of a tangent by a process of finding the limit of the direction of two points on the curve as their distance becomes zero. The curve between two points on a curve very close to each other is a straight line.
When there were no satellite pictures and when the moon and the sun could be seen as circles, for a human without any aid, the earth is flat. This is because, a human cannot see beyond 5 miles or so due to the curvature of the earth. 5 miles compared to 5000 miles is indeed very small. Earth is flat at short distances, and is a sphere at long distances.
Again it is the question of a teacher using simple language to teach the student; it is not a question of ignorance of the teacher. How does light travel: straight or curved?
Again you try to posit how enlightened Muhammad was by demonstrating phenomenon through Western knowledge and Western science. Try not to mix the two because you really don't know what you are talking about. If Muhammad had truly been that great a teacher he could have explained things a little better--I find it curious that people all seemed to know what he was talking about at the time, but once science proved the ideas wrong--you simply changed the premise of your argument. You are completely illogical--don't mix science and religion, for the two don't go hand in hand.
I could go on and on about thermodynamics and quantum theory, but it is not for me to disprove Muhammad...it is my interest that his believers keep their idiocy and closed-mindedness to themselves. By the way, you have Christians who will drone on endlessly about how the Bible is right and science can prove it...and it all amounts to them WANTING to find religon factual. The only indisputable is observable reality--something that science is concerned with. If you want to go on thinking that Allah is behind it all, then fine--but don't think for an instance that lame-brain ideas posited by an ignorant mind 1,400 years ago make sense, because they don't.
I'm not saying all answers have been found in science, because they have not...there are plenty of things that scientists still fail to understand--however they, unlike thelogians, don't attempt to fill in the gaps with nonsense. Allah rubbed the moon with a celestial eraser and made it dim? Do you realize how stupid this sounds?
Allah (SWT) will forgive our past sins when we convert, but is this done only once? For example if one converts...can he/she deconvert...perform a sin and then reconvert to have this sin removed?
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM
Let us consider two Verses of the Holy Quran and their implications. From http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2&mac= we have:
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6.60: It is He who doth take your souls by night, and hath knowledge of all that ye have done by day: by day doth He raise you up again; that a term appointed be fulfilled; In the end unto Him will be your return; then will He show you the truth of all that ye did.
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and from http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=39&translator=2&mac= we find:
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39.42: It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.
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Let us consider the case of Salman Rushdie of the ‘Satanic Verses’ fame. He was a born Muslim. Sometime later, he renounced his faith and authored ‘Satanic Verses’. The Iranian clerics passed a fatwa of death on him. After a few years of living the life of a fugitive, he embraced Islam. He expected the fatwa to be eradicated. However nothing of that sort happened. Possibly because he wanted the security offered by the authorities again, he renounced Islam. He is living the life of a fugitive now. Can he embrace Islam again? Surely! When he does so, would his sins be forgiven? Yes, definitely.
ALLAH SWT knew his leaving Islam the first time when he slept that night after leaving Islam. ALLAH SWT knew that he came back to Islam, and again left Islam on the respective nights.
What about the one who being a Muslim desires to commit a crime and for that purpose renounces Islam, commit the crime, and then immediately embrace Islam again? The answer is found in http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=68&translator=2&mac=
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68.17: Verily We have tried them as We tried the People of the Garden, when they resolved to gather the fruits of the (garden) in the morning.
68.18: But made no reservation, ("If it be Allah.s Will").
68.19: Then there came on the (garden) a visitation from thy Lord, (which swept away) all around, while they were asleep.
68.20: So the (garden) became, by the morning, like a dark and desolate spot, (whose fruit had been gathered).
68.21: As the morning broke, they called out, one to another,-
68.22: "Go ye to your tilth (betimes) in the morning, if ye would gather the fruits."
68.23: So they departed, conversing in secret low tones, (saying)-
68.24: "Let not a single indigent person break in upon you into the (garden) this day."
68.25: And they opened the morning, strong in an (unjust) resolve.
68.26: But when they saw the (garden), they said: "We have surely lost our way:
68.27: "Indeed we are shut out (of the fruits of our labour)!"
68.28: Said one of them, more just (than the rest): "Did I not say to you, 'Why not glorify ((Allah))?'"
68.29: They said: "Glory to our Lord! Verily we have been doing wrong!"
68.30: Then they turned, one against another, in reproach.
68.31: They said: "Alas for us! We have indeed transgressed!
68.32: "It may be that our Lord will give us in exchange a better (garden) than this: for we do turn to Him (in repentance)!"
68.33: Such is the Punishment (in this life); but greater is the Punishment in the Hereafter,- if only they knew!
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In the above Verses Allah SWT preempted the evil persons. Likewise Allah SWT might take the life of that wicked person who left Islam on the night before he commits the crime. In that case, that person loses Paradise and is put in Hell. If Allah SWT has sanctioned the crime, He might allow the person to commit the crime and take the life of the criminal before the criminal becomes a Muslim again. Well, Allah SWT might indeed allow that person to become a Muslim again after committing the crime. If that person manages to become a Muslim again all his past sins would of course be forgiven. In all the three cases above, Allah SWT has the power to sanction them. ALLAH is the ultimate and He does what He chooses.
However once the Khilafath is established, it is expected that the apostate would be immediately imprisoned and released only if he embraces Islam again. If he refuses to embrace Islam again, he should be killed. This is to avoid chaos in society.
There is no contradiction in the paragraphs above. One describes the power of Allah SWT and the next describes the obligation of the Caliph.
Brother of the Umma Mohideen,
Assalamau Laikum,
I want to thank you (unlike many of the ungrateful infedel) of the efforts that you have put in to try & answer my questions. You may well have taken much time and pleasure I hope to do your research. Brother Mohideen I am grateful for this and may Allah SWT make you a better muslim for it.
I must be honest though that unfortunately the answers themselves have not helped me much.
Many of the answers given do not satisfy me. I am no scientist, but for example, I think there is no real scientific evidence that the moon was ever a fiery ball (i.e. the moon was a sun as explained in Tabiri)...even at the big bang.
Can you see how I am so confused?
With respect to the sun setting in muddy waters you said "Dhul Qarnain traveled west until he reached a sea shore. There was a spring of sea water, possibly a geyser from under the sea throwing water up." ...and therefore he saw the sun set in muddy waters.
BUT THIS IS FROM OUR KORAN...our perfect book. I suppose what I am asking is "why did Allah not tell Mohd (saw) that the sun never sets?"...instead this observation has been included in as if the sun was *seen* to set & it was put in the Koran. Our Holy Koran is there to educate 1 billion+ people....do people REALLY belive that the sun sets...we know & you know that it doesn't.
Perhaps the real meaning to this is something different...maybe a lot more ABSTRACT but I am without the noor to see it.
Can you see how I am so confused?
My brother, daily I punish myself with doubt and recently since Anwer was ill I have prayed 5 times a DAY. Further I have promised to go to Hajj, but the muslim in Saudi will not let the Ahmadi go to Hajj.
Dearest brother, verily I am confused in mind, the muftis I talk to here know less than I.
My brother, be sure though that I will continue & find meaning but through abstraction...for looking through science does not help.
Allah give me strength to continue my abstract search & to continue dawa of our almost perfet religion.
Mohideen said: "If that person manages to become a Muslim again all his past sins would of course be forgiven. In all the three cases above, Allah SWT has the power to sanction them. ALLAH is the ultimate and He does what He chooses."
So Allah decides if a person should die, but expects his followers to act in his stead. If He is, indeed, all powerful--why does he rely on people to carry out His laws for Him? Use logic my friend...
You want truth? Muhammad wrote a bunch of jibberish down, you believe that the jibberish was sent by God. Therefore, if I can disprove the existence of God, then it would prove that Muhammad was a delusional liar--ah but the quandry is I would be saying that Jesus was a liar too (which I have no reason to do since HIS followers do me no harm). Also, even when faced with proof, you would be blind to it and say that I am trying to trick you away from your faith.
Traditionally scientists have not even approached the issue of whether or not God exists--why? Because it is up to the person who poses a statement to defend it and to present evidence of it.
For instance, you say that the moon sets in a pool--science has observed that the sun does not set, but the earth turns making it appear that the sun is moving. So you attempt to show that Muhammad was right by saying, "well, it appears to set--that is what he meant." Whatever... Then you go on by saying that if there are two dots close togehter on a curved line then the line is straight--no it's not, it's still curved my friend. Even a moron takes it for granted that the Earth is curved--but when Allah said it was flat, he was just saying this for demonstration purposes.
I'm reminded of a Monty Python skit--I believe it was in the Holy Grail... Arthur was asked how it could be that coconuts were "found" in England. Arthur is forced to explain how by INVENTING a story--which is easily proved false. So instead of saying that the story is indeed silly, he has to compound the silliness of the argument by inventing further. This is what you are doing my friend--Muhammad came up with the silly proposition to begin with and left it up to you to try and explain it. Keep explaining my friend, it makes you look all the more foolish.
if there are two dots close togehter on a curved line then the line is straight--no it's not, it's still curved my friend.
Posted by: Eudaemon at April 4, 2006 04:21 PM
Please see http://www.answers.com/tangent&r=67. For immediate reference, we quote:
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tangent, in mathematics.
…For other curves and surfaces the tangent line at a given point P is defined as the limiting position, if such a limit exists, of a secant line through P and another point P′ on the curve or surface as P′ is allowed to approach P…
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I said the same thing in my words. The attempt by you and others is already - 1400 years back - commented upon as below. From http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=9&translator=2&mac=
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9.32: Fain would they extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
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Islam is the true religion. Come to it and benefit.
In mathematics a curved line is straighter and straighter as two points along that line grow closer and closer--this is your argument? They are never straight my friend--being close to straight is like being almost pregnant--either you are or you aren't.
It is true that it is sometimes useful to approximate curves as straight lines in mathematics. The same goes for certain laws of physics--we approximate gravitational pull as zero at certain distances depending on mass--but it is never zero at any distance for any mass. And I think you are saying that it was perfectly OK for Muhammad to approximate when describing the earth...but Muhammad did not say, "the earth is round, but for the purpose of this argument we shall say it is flat"--he said that it is flat.
You can't see it, but you are TRYING TO FIND a reason that Muhammad said what he did, because you cannot accept that he could have been wrong. What you are, in fact, saying is this: "sure the earth is not flat, but to an observor who only sees a little piece of it, it appears to be." This may explain why he THOUGHT it was flat--but it does not prove that it is or that Muhammad was correct in saying it is. Just admit he was wrong or that he was misinterpreted or that his words were not written down correctly (that there is at least some form of error in your texts) and we'll move on.
As far as the second statement...it seems that you are saying that Allah said that some people would not believe truth even though it is perfect...but as I've stated before the only certainty in this world is objective reality--though philosophers may even dispute this. Besides, when it comes to religion, there is NO OBJECTIVE truth. This is because certain things are accepted on faith alone. This is why it is pointless for me to ask you to prove that God exists.
Look, I could say something like, "years ago people lived on Mars and that because it grew hot with global warming from centuries of burning fossil fuels, Allah saw fit to see that the two last survivors were given Earth, so they and all the animals of Mars rode a spaceship to Earth--but with the proposition that we should take care of the earth and not allow global warming to happen again." See that I'm simply twisting the Biblical story of the flood to modern sensibilities--some people who are gullible would probably accept it as fact. And I could claim that it is true and claim to be a prophet...But by merely telling others to disprove that it happened and by not accepting their arguments or evidence to the contrary, it does not mean that I am correct. Believe it or not, similar doomsday prophesy was told during the cold war about nuclear energy by a few charlatans.
There have been many charlatans throughout history--most, thank goodness, were not believed. But still others were convincing enough to be believed...
Do I think that morality is important--yes. Do I think that generosity and kindness and peace and love for all are wonderful ideals--absolutely. Am I a prophet for saying that they are--no. Do I think you should accept that others may have their reasons for not believing the Qur'an is perfect (nevermind that they may be happy with their own religion or not having a religion at all)--I'm sure you know my answer. You see, it does not bother me that you believe what you do. You could go on believing that the earth is flat for all I care. But Muslims should not attempt to alter my society or my way of life by taking away my freedom to believe or disbelieve (or treating me differently for doing so). Maybe along with my believing that the earth is not flat or that the moon is not a fiery ball or that the Jews did not create or spread Aids or that the Jews do not have an earthquake machine--I just might believe that Islam doesn't seem all that peaceful and that it doesn't seem all that divinely inspired.
Assalamau-laikum all,
I have found this thread probably the most interesting in the 2 years I have been here. This has been brought about particularly by my Umma brother Mohideen in the mix.
Even though I am muslim, in the two years here I could NEVER bring about the deep type of Islamic viewpoint that my brother brings...so please Mohideen continue posting and thank you...may Allah SWT look upon you with much favour!
I know that you are true to our faith Mohideen and conservative...which is why I find it most interesting that questions raised by me were answered by you using (in the main) infedel developed science.
I compared your arguments to the excellent post provided by Eudaemon above. For ME the really telling thing was when he pointed out that "Muhammad did not say, "the earth is round, but for the purpose of this argument we shall say it is flat"--he said that IT IS FLAT.
My brother, Mohideen surely you will agree that the Koran is very decisive in every point, No where in it does it say in style or content "as an approximation to this assume that"
IT STATES THAT THIS IS SO AND THAT IS SO...END OF ARGUMENT...
SO.... PHEW .... HERE I GO ....POSSIBLY MAKING THE IMPORTANT STATEMENT IN MY LIFE (and perhaps condeming me to hellfire).
I THINK THAT SOME STATEMENTS OF THE KORAN ARE NOT TRUE.
This maybe because of interpetration on my part ....but even conservative muslims like and and the muftis say the same thing...so I don't know.....I just don't know....my head is spinning.
Brother Mohideen, ...let me say here & now that I AM STILL MUSLIM...and believe in ALLAH with all my might.....but I think it's OK to admit that the holy Koran is not perfect...that Mohd (saw) got a few things wrong.....I think admitting this infact makes me A BETTER MUSLIM.
The thing that I really fear (and still believe is that) once a muslim then Allah SWT incarinates you always as a muslim...and that because of my doubts I maybe condemned to hellfire for all eternity....
Allah SWT please forgive my forwarding and my big mouth!
Brother Mohideen I beg you to please still talk to me....and tell me more about punishments I may incur...
Do I think you should accept that others may have their reasons for not believing the Qur'an is perfect (nevermind that they may be happy with their own religion or not having a religion at all)
Posted by: Eudaemon at April 5, 2006 02:19 AM
Here is the answer from the Holy Quran itself. From http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=2&mac= we have:
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Yusuf Ali 2.256: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
Shakir 2.256: There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Pickthal 2.256: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
M. Khan 2.256: There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghoot and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
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The right path is Islam. As regards my thinking that ‘the Holy Quran is perfect,’ please see “6. A test of our understanding of Islam,” in my blog http://spaces.msn.com/deentech/
Brother of the Umma, Mohideen,
I read "6" on your impressive blog. It said
"If any Muslim feels that there is some inconsistency between a part of the Holy Quran and another part, it simply shows that the understanding of that person with regard to Islam is lacking."
Agreed...
Such a person must devote as much time as possible to study Islam until he / she understands that the apparent inconsistency is resolved.
This is difficulty for me! No matter how much I study....I cannot get away from Koran inaccuracies.....they just won't go away. If something is round, it cannot be flat. I DON'T KNOW HOW to resolve this. Your help in this regard will be helpful.
You say "A point to make now is that if any feels there is inconsistency do not blame self or others, but attempt further study and that Doubts when cleared lead to knowledge".
Unfortunately more reading is leading to further doubts in my mind.
You say "There is no harm in getting doubts".
Wow...that's a relief.
- Mohideen
I feel you need to understand a bit more about proper logical arguments, how they should be posed and "inherent" results.
When forming arguments there are two ways in which you can argue--you can either use deductive or inductive reasoning. In case you don't know what these are, allow me to explain:
In order to use the deductive method, you must start with axioms, or general statements regarded as fact. Then you use these statements for which to argue their results--if your axioms are true, then everything that follows can be argued to be true. This method can be used in philosophy to a great degree because of the nature of man being somewhat predictable--I mean we are people, so everyone must know what it's like to be a person, right? However, when used to explain nature and the world or universe that surrounds us, there is far too much that we don't understand to form a generally accepted fact.
For example, Aristotle devised a method of scientific investigation using deductive reasoning. He would usually start with knowledge already accepted as fact--by reviewing former research done before him. He would then introduce his own arguments and solutions based on these accepted truths. But, as is often in science, if former research was faulty--his arguments would be faulty as well. Aristotle's arrogance was compounded when he would attempt to refute others' claims by deducing that results were obsurd (reductio ad absurdum--reducing something to absurdity). However, often when an opponent would use this same kind of argument against him, it made him and his students angry.
The alternative to deductive reasoning is inductive reasoning. This starts with observations of nature. If an idea conflicts with what happens in nature, the idea must be changed or thrown out. It follows that as more and more observations are made then the resulting arguments based on them will have a better foundation and become generally accepted. This method has come to be known as the scientific method, and it has given rise to many simple, yet powerful statements about how nature works.
When you argue that a religion is correct--you begin with the premise that it is fact and then you attempt to support it with evidence. This can lead to horrendous falsities. Science was convinced that the earth was the center of the solar system for centuries--not only because religion told us so, but because people like Aristotle said it was so. Even when faced with evidence to the contrary--religious authorities refuted the validity of any other argument. The Catholic Church refused to acknowledge that Galileo could have been right, and declared him a heretic. This is a huge danger inherent in religion imposing its viewpoint on humanity or in religion having authority to enforce its own dogma. It fails to acknowledge that differing viewpoints may be correct (it lacks humility).
Deductive reasoning can be used very effectively to argue the existence of God--and I will concede the POSSIBILITY of the existence of God due to the numerous seemingly valid arguments presented. In fact, most scientists are not athiests, despite what many religious adherents or secular humanists think. And I refuse to think that Islam cannot be reformed since Christianity was once dominated by religious authority and, thereby, strongly enforced dogmatic viewpoints, while now Christianity allows a plethora of ideas to exist.
I also will not regard Islam as not having value or that Muslims lack the ability to create or to invent (though it is difficult to hold this view if you review just about any list of scientific discoveries or great inventions). I feel the greatest reason for Muslims being held back in this regard is the lack of proper education and the lack of an Islamic reformation--and this is not a result of colonialism, as much as Muslim figureheads would like their followers to believe. In fact, Muslims display a great deal of drive and commitment and the number of Muslim professionals exposes any sort of conclusion about any lack of capacity for them to learn as a complete falacy. However, for as long as democracies in the Middle East (Iraq included) revert to simply voting in religious despots who would enforce dogma in the same fashion as the Catholic Church prior to reformation, the trend for conservatives and liberals alike to say that Islam cannot support true freedom (academic freedom included) will continue. And yes, this could continue to hold back the Muslim world from contributing to the advancement of mankind.
Also being a woman ...our's prophet's (pbuh) marriage to Aiesha at the age of 6 disturbs me greatly....was there a need for this? Many muslims I have spoken to lie and say she was 18 but the Hadith clearly talk about her playing with dolls. Allah forgive my need to question this.
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM
Dear sister Naseem,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah.
Before I attempt to answer the above question, permit me to answer the following question:
How could Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, adopt a person as his son, get him married, and then after that son divorces his wife, marry her? How could a father marry his own daughter-in-law?
There are two issues involved in the above question:
1. Is adoption the same as begetting a child?
2. Can a father marry the divorced / widowed wife of his son?
The answer to the second question above is an emphatic no on the basis of 4:23 from http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=2&mac=
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4:23 Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-
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See that there is no restriction regarding sex between the son and his ex-wife. Even if the son has not had any sex with his ex-wife, the father is forbidden to marry her. Please notice the contrast with regard to the daughter of an ex-wife.
Still Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, married the wife of his adopted son after she completed the waiting period. This is to establish without any shred of doubt that an adopted child is not the same as a biological child.
Now let us turn to the marriage between mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, and Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. He did infact marry her when she was 6 years old and consummated the marriage when she was 9 years old. Did he marry her of his own desire? No. It was preordained as from http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=true+twice+dream&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
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Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle said (to me), "You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, 'If this dream is from Allah, He will cause it to come true.' " (Book #62, Hadith #15) (Sahih Bukhari)
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Why did he do that? Can this quote be a pointer? From http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/07/20040716-11.html we have:
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U.S. law enforcement has documented cases of Latvian girls trafficked into sexual slavery in Chicago, or Ukrainian girls trafficked in Los Angeles, and Maryland, or Thai, Korean, Malaysian and Vietnamese girls trafficked in Georgia, or and Mexican girls trafficked in California, New Jersey and here in Florida. Many of the victims are teenagers, some as young as 12 years old.
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In a world where a teenage girl is forced into sex, what would be the plight of a teenage wife? After all everyone agrees that sex with one’s wife is legal. What happens if that wife is pre-pubescent? To give guidance to Muslims regarding such pre-pubescent wives, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, married mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, at the age of six and consummated the marriage when she reached puberty at the age of nine. The derived rules are:
1. No sex with a pre-pubescent wife.
2. As legal sex is permitted with wife or which the right hand possesses only, absolutely no sex with any pre-pubescent girl.
3. For the current world, no child sex at all.
Doesn’t Allah know that mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, would come of age when she becomes nine years old? Why can’t she be married then so that the waiting is not there? If such were the case, there would be no guidance regarding the pre-pubescent orphan girls without any relative who just cannot marry her like father, uncle, or brother. Remember that Islam never allows a girl to be a destitute whatever be the age. Thus, a pre-pubescent orphan girl could be married by a Muslim to give her shelter. Such a husband should wait her puberty to commence to have sex with her.
Alright, if we need a rule stating that no sex with a pre-pubescent girl even if she is a wife, why marry at the age of six? Why not eight? The answer is that it is a demonstration of the prophetic nature of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
It should be understood that a girl could reach puberty at any age. From http://youngest_mother.tripod.com/ we have:
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… When her child was born by Caesarean section in May 1939, Medina made medical history, and is still the youngest known mother in the world.
… Doctor Lozada has conducted very detailed studies since the diagnostic of pregnancy which aroused much curiosity in the country; he took an x-ray of the child and her baby, established a diagnostic of the fetal situation, observed the state of functionality of the little mother who had begun menstruating at the age of 8 months. …
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Consider the emotional state of the husband who cannot have sex with his wife as she is not yet ready biologically. It is better to keep this period of agony as small as possible. Here the Arabic language plays a part. In Arabic there are words for the singular, dual, and the plural. If Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, married mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, at the age of seven, the word used would correspond to the dual; if at the age of eight the word would represent the singular. The minimum number of years that mandates the use of the word for plural in Arabic is three. Thus, to a believer, this marriage at the age of six to a pre-pubescent girl, and the waiting of three years mandating the plural so that in future husbands of pre-pubescent girls wait for any number of years before having sex with their wives is indeed a demonstration of prophesy. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, has lived by his prophesy.
Allah knows best.
you are a conservative muslim
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM
Dear sister Naseem,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah.
I believe I have attempted to answer all the questions raised by you at 10.58 am on April 3, 2006.
Kindly do not add any adjective to any Muslim. I am a Muslim; nothing more, nothing less Inshah Allah. Kindly permit me to repeat: do not splinter the Ummah by using adjectives like conservative, liberal, modern, Hanafi, Shafee, Maliki, Ahmadi etc. We are one Ummah and we are Muslims.
A number of personal works might keep me occupied for a number of days. Until then, may Allah SWT help you in your dawa.
Was Salaam
Mohideen said: "U.S. law enforcement has documented cases of Latvian girls trafficked into sexual slavery in Chicago, or Ukrainian girls trafficked in Los Angeles, and Maryland, or Thai, Korean, Malaysian and Vietnamese girls trafficked in Georgia, or and Mexican girls trafficked in California, New Jersey and here in Florida. Many of the victims are teenagers, some as young as 12 years old."
If you don't mind my asking--what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Stay germain, please. Why do Muslims attempt to excuse bad behavior by demonstrating that it happens in the West--don't you think we consider it bad?
If you are trying to argue that Muhammad was being kind to the girl by marrying her and having sex with her when she was nine, you are crazy. Why couldn't she be adopted? Was she not still a child? Should she not still have been raised as one? And you go on to say that Muhammad was forced to in order to fulfill a silly prophesy? Why was she married to his adopted son anyway? Well--heck, I sort of like this whole prophet idea...I could probably have lots of prophesies that would make it all right to have loads of sex with as many people as I want and live as debauched and depraved as I want--oh yeah, except that I have morals and it would be WRONG.
- Mohideen
Below is an entreaty that Sir Francis Bacon made to King James in 1620. Note that he is sincere in his admiration of God and that he believes it not a sin to seek knowledge through scientific inquiry--rather that, due to the infinite possibilities to better man's plot and to provide an unending progress and generosity to mankind, it is a duty for learned and intellectual people to inquire further about nature and of man's place in it. Far from an athiest or someone who is seeking to disprove the existence of God, Sir Francis Bacon argues perfectly why religion or any other authority ought to encourage free-thought. The full quote can be found here: http://www.constitution.org/bacon/instauration.html
For my own part at least, in obedience to the everlasting love of truth, I have committed myself to the uncertainties and difficulties and solitudes of the ways and, relying on the divine assistance, have upheld my mind both against the shocks and embattled ranks of opinion, and against my own private and inward hesitations and scruples, and against the fogs and clouds of nature, and the phantoms flitting about on every side, in the hope of providing at last for the present and future generations guidance more faithful and secure. Wherein if I have made any progress, the way has been opened to me by no other means than the true and legitimate humiliation of the human spirit. For all those who before me have applied themselves to the invention of arts have but cast a glance or two upon facts and examples and experience, and straightway proceeded, as if invention were nothing more than an exercise of thought, to invoke their own spirits to give them oracles. I, on the contrary, dwelling purely and constantly among the facts of nature, withdraw my intellect from them no further than may suffice to let the images and rays of natural objects meet in a point, as they do in the sense of vision; whence it follows that the strength and excellence of the wit has but little to do in the matter. And the same humility which I use in inventing I employ likewise in teaching. For I do not endeavor either by triumphs of confutation, or pleadings of antiquity, or assumption of authority, or even by the veil of obscurity, to invest these inventions of mine with any majesty; which might easily be done by one who sought to give luster to his own name rather than light to other men's minds. I have not sought (I say) nor do I seek either to force or ensnare men's judgments, but I lead them to things themselves and the concordances of things, that they may see for themselves what they have, what they can dispute, what they can add and contribute to the common stock. And for myself, if in anything I have been either too credulous or too little awake and attentive, or if I have fallen off by the way and left the inquiry incomplete, nevertheless I so present these things naked and open, that my errors can be marked and set aside before the mass of knowledge be further infected by them; and it will be easy also for others to continue and carry on my labors. And by these means I suppose that I have established forever a true and lawful marriage between the empirical and the rational faculty, the unkind and ill-starred divorce and separation of which has thrown into confusion all the affairs of the human family.
Wherefore, seeing that these things do not depend upon myself, at the outset of the work I most humbly and fervently pray to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, that remembering the sorrows of mankind and the pilgrimage of this our life wherein we wear out days few and evil, they will vouchsafe through my hands to endow the human family with new mercies. This likewise I humbly pray, that things human may not interfere with things divine, and that from the opening of the ways of sense and the increase of natural light there may arise in our minds no incredulity or darkness with regard to the divine mysteries, but rather that the understanding being thereby purified and purged of fancies and vanity, and yet not the less subject and entirely submissive to the divine oracles, may give to faith that which is faith's. Lastly, that knowledge being now discharged of that venom which the serpent infused into it, and which makes the mind of man to swell, we may not be wise above measure and sobriety, but cultivate truth in charity.
And now, having said my prayers, I turn to men, to whom I have certain salutary admonitions to offer and certain fair requests to make. My first admonition (which was also my prayer) is that men confine the sense within the limits of duty in respect of things divine: for the sense is like the sun, which reveals the face of earth, but seals and shuts up the face of heaven. My next, that in flying from this evil they fall not into the opposite error, which they will surely do if they think that the inquisition of nature is in any part interdicted or forbidden. For it was not that pure and uncorrupted natural knowledge whereby Adam gave names to the creatures according to their propriety, which, gave occasion to the fall. It was the ambitious and proud desire of moral knowledge to judge of good and evil, to the end that man may revolt from God and give laws to himself, which was the form and manner of the temptation. Whereas of the sciences which regard nature, the divine philosopher declares that "it is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but it is the glory of the King to find a thing out." Even as though the divine nature took pleasure in the innocent and kindly sport of children playing at hide-and-seek, and vouchsafed of his kindness and goodness to admit the human spirit for his playfellow at that game. Lastly, I would address one general admonition to all — that they consider what are the true ends of knowledge, and that they seek it not either for pleasure of the mind, or for contention, or for superiority to others, or for profit, or fame, or power, or any of these inferior things, but for the benefit and use of life, and that they perfect and govern it in charity. For it was from lust of power that the angels fell, from lust of knowledge that man fell; but of charity there can be no excess, neither did angel or man ever come in danger by it.
It's funny to contrast the difference between how children excuse their wrongdoing, with how Muhammad did. Children will often say, "the devil made me do it." While Muhammad said, "God Almighty said to do it." Think about that for a minute...
I'm guessing, because of the way arranged marriages typically work in backwards societies, that once the marriage took place between Aisha and Muhammad's adopted son--her parents would not take her back when his son divorced her (what grounds he doesn't provide). This is indicative of the "disgrace" that backwards societies apply to women who are "used goods." Her parents wouldn't take her back...essentially leaving her an orphan. But since she was 6 at the time--a bit young by civilized standards--she wasn't defiled Muhammad and saw her as therefore desirable as a mate (again, if she were deflowered I'm sure he would have been fine with her being destitute--another backwards viewpoint).
The problem I have with the scenario is this: if Muhammad was divining what was right and wrong, why was it beyond his comprehension that a reasonable solution would be to adopt her as a daughter or to tell her parents and all of the society at the time that their customes regarding marriage and women were bad and backward? If God were speaking to him, why didn't He suggest that Muhammad should teach them that the backwards ways were wrong, fundamentally? Mohideen, you say that there is a different standard that is applied today--why is this so? Is it because the standard that Muhammad applied was wrong? Are we wrong to regard girls who are 6 or 9 to be too young for marriage? Is it wrong to have arranged marriages--since women are often regarded as cattle (with their value assigned by how many cows they're worth) to become "property" of the man to do his bidding, etc.? If Muhammad was divining God's will why didn't God tell him that it is wrong for people to be treated differently or that slavery is wrong or that people of different ethnicities or faiths should be equal? Did God intend for peace to be elusive until only one voice was accepted--if so by what standard did he apply when he picked Muhammad, who obviously had his issues? How can society be expected to take Muhammad's words as truth--by what measure can we apply his words as actually coming from God when we have other people claiming or who have claimed to be prophets? How do you know what he said was right and how can you expect others to conform? Even if people believe in God and believe in standards of right and wrong, how do we know Muhammad was the only person to have received God's message in its entirety? How do we know that Muhammad wasn't biased or errant in anything he said? In effect, how do we know he was a prophet at all?
Like I've said before--religion has never been an Objective Truth, for there's no such thing. Things have to be accepted on faith alone and it's unreasonable to expect everyone to share your same view. I may watch a movie and think it's great--while others may find it aweful...wouldn't it be unreasonable to say that God said the movie is good so you must believe it is good? I feel that for the most part the concept of right and wrong are universal and that morals are conceived and received by all men from either a shared history or possibly from God. But to what degree we should expect that God has told us how to enforce these standards is debatable. Reason suggests that if man can learn to be good and learn to be bad that a sinner can reform himself--that there is almost no reason to end life where there remains the possibility for salvation or perfection of the human spirit, if such a thing is real. Reason suggests that people should be treated equally. Reason suggests that young girls should not be married or defiled. How can something that is regarded as truth be contrary to reason?
- Mohideen
What do you seek to establish by showing that Islam is growing? Do you honestly think that it's doing so because it is attractive? Or could it possibly be that it's primarily due to the abnormally low birth rates in the West? If you want to actually show that the growth is by attractiveness--i.e. people are coming to the faith voluntarily, you'll have to do better than that.
If Islam is indeed the fastest growing religion, and it is sincerely winning the hearts and minds of people--then why is it that Muslims feel so threatened of outside thought and religious teaching? If Muslims are so convinced that their religion is true, why do they insist that it not be directly compared to other religion on equal grounds--let the best religion win?
I will tell you why--because this so-called global jihad or struggle against non-believers is not actually grounded in anything other than penis envy. Well, come on boys--let's drop trow and get this over with. In an actual contest you are afraid you will lose--so you've got to stack the deck in your favor. In many Muslim countries it is against the law to evangelize the Christian faith--why do you think this is? Can you find in your holy books where it says to outlaw Christian evangelism? It's because you feel threatened--you feel as though perhaps when directly compared, people might actually leave the Muslim faith out of acknowledgement that on ideals alone and on principles alone Christianity wins out. I'm not a Christian, but I recognize a superior set of ideals when I see it... There is no mistaking that Christianity has given rise to the greatest birth of invention and of knowledge and of wisdom the likes of which this earth and our humanity has not seen before. This is yet another source of Muslim envy toward the West. Well, since you are bound by religion from joining us in principle, you seek to destroy us by making us in your image. Well--I probably speak for many freedom loving people when I say--piss off and take your "truth" elsewhere...you see, we already have one.
In these pages there was an assertion that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, prophesied nothing. If as you say, the number of baptisms is increasing, it is the effect of the following Tradition from http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=Medina+snake&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
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Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Verily, Belief returns and goes back to Medina as a snake returns and goes back to its hole (when in danger)." (Book #30, Hadith #100) (Sahih Bukhari)
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This is one of the approaches of the Day of Judgment. In the approach of the Day of Judgment, Islam would shrink and return to Medina and its environs. It is possible that the shrinking of Islam has started. Having said the above, we love to state the following Tradition also. This is found in http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=truth+hour+west&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
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It has been narrated by Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The people of the west will continue to triumphantly follow the truth until the hour is established. (Book #020, Hadith #4722) (Sahih Muslim)
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That is, the west that seems to severely criticize Islam now, would embrace Islam when it recognizes the truth, and then they would not leave it until the Day of Judgment.
Allah knows best.
If in the Islamic faith, as in the Christian faith, apocryphal literature serves the same purpose, then it is generally regarded as a rallying point for which believers continue their faith and hope during times of persecution. I don't doubt that believers take apocryphal literature very seriously--as they should. But it should be tempered, because there are warmongers who would love to do their "duty" in ensuring that Biblical Armageddon actually comes to pass. This could be disastrous since truthfully no one knows when (or if) it will actually occur.
As I've said, there are Christians who believe that the final battle between good and evil will be between the Christians (good) and the Muslims (evil). It is a very small minority who feel this way, but the idea is out there. I feel this sets a dangerous stage for which to conduct international politics--for where is the foundation of trust. The vast majority of Americans don't feel this way, but if the trend for people to become more religious (on both Muslim and Christian sides) then the pendulum may sway even further to the right and peace and stability for all could be jeopardized. It would, in fact, become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Imagine the aweful feeling that mankind would feel if such a calamity were allowed to ensue, and such bloodshed and violence did not actually beckon Christ's return, but was for nothing. It is really pathetic that people look forward to such trying times because they feel that they would be rewarded...how selfish is that? Like the supposed martyrs who are not defenders but offenders, against peace and for continued violence and bloodshed. Why must religion be motivated by selfishness and fear? And people wonder why many have doubts?
Assalamau-Alaikum all,
Brother of the umma Mohideen, you are a conservative muslim and having lived & taught in America....you have done very well to ensure that Infidel thinkiing has not clouded your judgement.
The Infidel says that you cannot be muslim & be clever...but you have proved many of the infidel wrong. I so want for your miracles work to continue ...you are a model muslim that others need to aspire to...you even acknowledged that Ahmadis are muslims too....progress indeed.
As an Ahmadi MUSLIM...I have tried to fulfill my primary role of dawa on this infidel blog...I mean why bother on a muslim website...they already know what we know.
My brother of the Umma, your one statement however made today troubles me somewhat and some of the infedel has picked on it too...
"Islam is perfect".
I am troubled because I believe that Islam is ALMOST perfect but not perfect.
There are a few inaccuracies that have been highlighted within Islam literature which are not 100% true.
The earth is flat (I can live with this one...because this is an abstract model...Allah showed the muslim that the West too is for the muslim...this is best examplifed on a flat surface).
The moon is fiery ball...generating it's own light ...but it gets the light from the sun.
The sun sets in a muddy environment & can only rise after permission from Allah (swt).
I am sure it is my lack of understanding that is at fault here and I pray that Allah (swt)shows me the light ...but at the moment I am troubled by this.
Also being a woman ...our's prophet's (pbuh) marriage to Aiesha at the age of 6 disturbs me greatly....was there a need for this? Many muslims I have spoken to lie and say she was 18 but the Hadith clearly talk about her playing with dolls. Allah forgive my need to question this.
Getting back to this topic, I have a question too. Allah (SWT) will forgive our past sins when we convert, but is this done only once? For example if one converts...can he/she deconvert...perform a sin and then reconvert to have this sin removed?
This question troubles mE somewhat too? In the UK I have asked a muftis these questions and was only TOLD to pray to Allah for forgivness in thinking in this corrupt manner. I prayed very hard for many days but these questions linger?
I was brought up in the UK and mixing with infedel childrens has not helped me...but you seem to have survived this trauma...truly Allah is with you.
Me, I am much afraid that hellfire is for me...it is why I perform dawa with much devotion, but I am afraid...and I keep thinking that Allah punished me for this by almost taking my shor Anwer away from me in the earthquake.
Unlike you I am much troubled in mind because I think Islam is almost perfect but not completely so.
I still wish Islamic peace & jilbabs for the infedel and want to be stong in belief in Allah(swt).
Posted by: NaseemDear sister Naseem,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah
May I rephrase this question? Why evil thoughts occur? The answer is found in http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=occurs&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
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Abu Huraira reported that Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), said: When it occurs to my bondsman that he should do a good deed but he actually does not do it, record one good to him, but if he puts it into practice, I make an entry of ten good acts in his favour. When it occurs to him to do evil, but he does not commit it, I forgive that. But if he commits it, I record one evil against his name. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed. The angels said: That bondsman of Yours intends to commit evil. though His Lord is more Vigilant than he. Upon this He (the Lord) said: Watch him; if he commits (evil), write it against his name but if he refrains from doing it, write one good deed or him, for he desisted from doing it for My sake. The Messenger of Allah said: He who amongst you is good of faith, all his good acts are multiplied from ten to seven hundred times (and are recorded in his name) and all the evils that he commits are recorded as such (i, e. without increase) till he meets Allah. (Book #001, Hadith #0235) (Sahih Muslim)
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An evil thought that was not implemented is rewarded by Allah. So, do not be perturbed by your lingering questions. Yes, beware you don’t act on any evil thought as it would be recorded against you.
In India and other countries, when an inquisitive child asks a difficult question that child is asked to shut up and behave well in future by not asking such questions. However, in USA I found that the elders try their level best to answer the most difficult questions. When they feel that they do not have the ability, they often direct the child to investigate and help the child in the investigation. This encourages the child to be curious and learn more.
May Allah SWT endow the Muslim mother with the patience to educate her child even if the questions are downright infuriating.
Inshah Allah, I hope to attempt to answer your questions. I pray to Allah to help me.
Posted by: Mohideen IbramshaHow is that answering questions? All you did was tell her it was all right to ask questions--what question did you answer? Perhaps you don't know the answer, which is why you tell her to ask some such authority. Perhaps you fail to realize that religion OUGHT to make sense. If questions aren't easily answered it's not because you lack the capacity to answer them, it's because the religion has failed to do so. This is why Muslims get defensive when you mention something like Muhammad's pedophilia--the questions aren't easily answered because it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. I would bet that if you had been honest with yourself you simply CANNOT defend such an act.
How can an imperfect man deliver a perfect message? Muhammad introduced his personal biases for he could not have known truth as it was revealed to him (for to be perfect would be god-like indeed). Not to mention, as Profitsbeard said, "Even Muslims admit that some suras were lost, one even eaten by a jackass that wandered into some early believer's tent and munched down that specific verse ...which had been scribbled on a palm leaf, or some other form of edible medieval post-it note." There are inherent FLAWS throughout religion--not just the ones you perceive in the beliefs of others. Why don't you wake up to this fact: "you are not perfect, neither is your religion (especially as understood by you and its followers), so you have NO RIGHT TO JUDGE OTHERS." No compulsion, indeed!
Posted by: Eudaemonyou have NO RIGHT TO JUDGE OTHERS
Posted by: Eudaemon at April 3, 2006 04:48 PM
Pray tell me what judgment did I give?
Posted by: Mohideen IbramshaWhat I am saying is that Islam should not proclaim to be truth and that Judaism/Christianity is false. If you believe that your religion is correct, you should at least acknowledge other people's right to believe as they wish. The Golden Rule seems to not apply in the case of Muslims--which is the double standard to which this thread is directed.
Additionally Islam should not be spread through violence--if you believe otherwise, then the statement is still directed at you. Provide a logical moral foundation for such a belief. If Allah truly was disgusted by infidels why does he allow them to prosper while Islamic countries remain in poverty? Have you not thought of how silly you seem when you blame all of mankind's ills on the rascally Jews and infidels? Earthquake machine? Are you serious? You've got to have a screw lose...
How about all of the good that eminates from Western and Jewish culture? Why would a just God allow the unbelievers to develop technology, knowledge, arts, etc. while Muslims do well to put food on the table? Is God unjust? Does he not care about his believers? Could it be that the West does well because it is not Muslim? Could it be that all of the good (and the bad) that comes out of the West is because of the freedom we have? Perhaps God rewards us for what we do with our freedom?
Posted by: EudaemonDear brother of the Umma Mohideen,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah
I was afraid that perhaps I had gone too far with my questions and that you would not answer...but Insha-Allah , Allah (swt)has seen fit to provide succur and favour upon me...and you did not abandon your sister.
I know that you need time to reflect on the questions I posed...this is most important to me...so please take your time..do not let the infedel hurry you ....but please attempt to answer them.
I was telling Anwer about my emeetings with you... and Masha-Allah he sends his wishes and every success on more Koranic miracles, you have worked hard.
The one aspect I feel very emotional about is this. Do you think that I am being punished for such impure thoughts? Why should Anwer suffer if I am the guilty one? I cannot sleep when he coughs in pain and sometimes I cry myself to sleep. Do you think Allah sees this, it is I who should suffer? I try hard with dawa here in Pak and the UK when I go.
I know you may not have the answers, but I feel you are at a higher plane in your Islamic quest than I and your opinion may help my emotional state.
Note that I am not really looking for sympathy...but an islamic viewpoint may help.
Posted by: NaseemDear sister Naseem,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah.
I never heard that the moon generates its own light. Could you please give the reference? For the present, I offer the following:
From http://www.solarviews.com/eng/moon.htm we have:
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Moon Statistics
Mean surface temperature (day) 107°C
Mean surface temperature (night) -153°C
Maximum surface temperature 123°C
Minimum surface temperature -233°C
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In our homes we use fire to boil water. The moon has mean day surface temperature of 107 degrees Centigrade which is hotter than the boiling point of water. So, in that sense, the moon is indeed fiery!
The following http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=+Kahf+year&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all we have:
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An-Nawwas b. Sam'an reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made a mention of the Dajjal one day in the morning. He sometimes described him to be insignificant and sometimes described (his turmoil) as very significant rand we felt) as if he were in the cluster of the date-palm trees. When we went to him (to the Holy Prophet) in the evening and he read (the signs of fear) in our faces, he said: What is the matter with you? We said: Allah's Messenger, you made a mention of the Dajjal in the morning (sometimes describing him) to be insignificant and sometimes very important, until we began to think as if he were present in some (near) part of the cluster of the datpalm trees. Thereupon he said: I harbour fear in regard to you in so many other things besides the Dajjal. If he comes forth while I am among on, I shall contend with him on your behalf, but if he comes forth while I am not amongst you, a man must contend on his own behalf and Allah would take care of every Muslim on my behalf (and safeguard him against his evil). He (Dajjal) would be a young man with twisted, contracted hair, and a blind eye. I compare him to 'Abd-ul-'Uzza b. Qatan. He who amongst you would survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Sura Kahf (xviii.). He would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah's Messenger, how long would he stay on the earth? He said.. For forty days, one day like a year and one day like a month and one day like a week and the rest of the days would be like your days. We said: Allah's Messenger, would one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer). We said: Allah's Messenger, how quickly would he walk upon the earth? Thereupon he said: Like cloud driven by the wind. He would come to the people and invite them (to a wrong religion) and they would affirm their faith in him and respond to him. He would then give command to the sky and there would be rainfall upon the earth and it would grow crops. Then in the evening, their posturing animals would come to them with their humps very high and their udders full of milk and their flanks stretched. He would then come to another people and invite them. But they would reject him and he would go away from them and there would be drought for them and nothing would be lef t with them in the form of wealth. He would then walk through the waste, land and say to it: Bring forth your treasures, and the treasures would come out and collect (themselves) before him like the swarm of bees. He would then call a person brimming with youth and strike him with the sword and cut him into two pieces and (make these pieces lie at a distance which is generally) between the archer and his target. He would then call (that young man) and he will come forward laughing with his face gleaming (with happiness) and it would at this very time that Allah would send Christ, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damscus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. Every non-believer who would smell the odour of his self would die and his breath would reach as far as he would be able to see. He would then search for him (Dajjal) until he would catch hold of him at the gate of Ludd and would kill him. Then a people whom Allah had protected would come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he would wipe their faces and would inform them of their ranks in Paradise and it would be under such conditions that Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah would send Gog and Magog and they would swarm down from every slope. The first of them would pass the lake of Tibering and drink out of it. And when the last of them would pass, he would say: There was once water there. Jesus and his companions would then be besieged here (at Tur, and they would be so much hard pressed) that the head of the ox would be dearer to them than one hundred dinirs and Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would supplicate Allah, Who would send to them insects (which would attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish like one single person. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then come down to the earth and they would not find in the earth as much space as a single span which is not filled with their putrefaction and stench. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then again beseech Allah, Who would send birds whose necks would be like those of bactrin camels and they would carry them and throw them where God would will. Then Allah would send rain which no house of clay or (the tent of) camels' hairs would keep out and it would wash away the earth until it could appear to be a mirror. Then the earth would be told to bring forth its fruit and restore its blessing and, as a result thereof, there would grow (such a big) pomegranate that a group of persons would be able to eat that, and seek shelter under its skin and milch cow would give so much milk that a whole party would be able to drink it. And the milch camel would give such (a large quantity of) milk that the whole tribe would be able to drink out of that and the milch sheep would give so much milk that the whole family would be able to drink out of that and at that time Allah would send a pleasant wind which would soothe (people) even under their armpits, and would take the life of every Muslim and only the wicked would survive who would commit adultery like asses and the Last Hour would come to them. (Book #041, Hadith #7015) (Sahih Muslim)
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Now there is a hue and cry regarding global warming. When Dajjal appears the surface temperature during a day like a month would appear to be like that of the moon. Where is the infidel technology to survive such a temperature for 15 days in one go and survive?
Posted by: Mohideen IbramshaDajjal? You must mean Muhammad...I know full well that the earth was not boiling when Muhammad walked the earth--yes, he lived in a desert, but it wasn't that hot.
Don't try to argue logic while quoting apocolyptic literature--from any faith. Hopefully there aren't Christians who will start quoting Revelation...
I find it humerous that you state that 107°C is hot--the boiling point for water, yes...but not that hot in the cosmic scheme of things. Most flames burn much hotter. By the way, how do you know how hot it is on the moon anyway? Could it be that the West observed it through rational thought and science?
Posted by: EudaemonNaseem -
You earlier asked if Allah saw fit to punish you for questioning your faith by inflicting pain upon your husband. I find it very sad that you would think such a thing. I believe that you stated earlier that he almost died in the earthquake. Well, he did not die--while others did. Did the ones who perished (or their questioning wives) do something even more disturbing to deserve death? The fact is that bad things happen to good people--it has been that way for all time. Theologians have attempted to answer why for almost as long as religion has been around. The question, "if God is just, how can bad people be rewarded while good people receive torment?"
The Jews have had to ask this question for far longer and far more consistently than almost anyone else. The book of Job (the Muslim Ayyub) is probably the best testament for what the Jews perceive is the reason behind these trials. They believe that your faith is made stronger if held steadfastly through trying times and that there is indeed reward in the end if you maintain your faith.
Personally I feel that neither God not Satan sends the many awesome disasters that befall man. Science has told us many things about why such things occur. What is more for mankind to deal with is the constant trials that we bring upon ourselves. Why must people quarrel? Why must people commit wrongdoing when they know wrong from right? These are the true questions that are best answered through faith--unfortunately I feel that Islam causes more strife and turmoil today than any other source. Indeed, Muslims are told that it's good to suffer and good to die--must be a lot of good in the Muslim world then--so much that they like to share with others...I wish they wouldn't.
Posted by: EudaemonDearest brother of the Umma Mohideen,
Your sister says Assalamau-Laikumou & to all interested infedels,
Here is the reference to the moon being a fiery ball (i.e. a sun) that you asked for.
Tabari I:233 “I heard Ka'b the Rabbi tell a marvelous story about the sun and the moon. He said the sun and moon will be like two hamstrung oxen flung into hell.
“Ibn Abbas said: ‘You want me to tell you what I heard the Messenger say about the sun and moon and the beginning of creation and how things went with them.' We said, ‘We would.'”
“When the Messenger was asked about that, he replied, ‘When Allah was done with His creation and only Adam remained to be created,
He created two suns from the light of His Throne. His foreknowledge told Him that He would efface one and change it to a moon; so the moon is smaller in size than the sun.'”
“Muhammad continued, ‘If Allah had left THE TWO SUNS as He created them, night would not have been distinguishable from day. A fasting person would not know when he must fast. A woman would not know how to reckon the period of her impurity. Muslims would not know the time of the pilgrimage. Allah was too concerned with His slaves to do such a thing.”
Tabari I:234 “Allah thus sent Gabriel to drag his wing three times OVER THE FACE OF THE MOON, WHICH AT THE TIME WAS A SUN.
HE EFFACED ITS LUMINOSITY AND LEFT THE LIGHT IN IT. This is what Allah means: [in Qur'an 17:12] ‘We have blotted out the sign of the night, and We have made the sign of the day something to see by.' The blackness you can see as lines on the moon is a trace of the blotting.”
Mohideen is a well respected teacher, and by all means exchange dialogue ...but there is no need to be rude to the 1st muslim that I have come across who will accept Ahmadis as muslims ...one that has brought significant understanding of Islam to this infedel blog.
This blog is all the better for it ...a bit of respect please.
Posted by: NaseemDear sister Naseem,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah
Consider the following Verse 86 of Chapter 18 of the Holy Quran from http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=18&mac=
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Yusuf Ali 86: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
Shakir 86: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
Pickthal 86: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
M. Khan 86: Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."
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and
Verse 38 of Chapter 36 of the Holy Quran from http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=36&mac=
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Yusuf Ali 38: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
Shakir 38: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Pickthal 38: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
M. Khan 38: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
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and the explanation of Verse 38 of Chapter 36 of the Holy Quran given by the following Tradition from http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=prostrates+return&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
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Narrated Abu Dhar: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38) (Book #54, Hadith #421) (Sahih Bukhari)
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For an American living in San Fransisco the sun sets in the sea. However for an American living in Louisville, KY the sun sets on land. What? Sun sets in sea and also land??? The correct interpretation of Verse 86 of Chapter 18 of the Holy Quran is that Dhul Qarnain traveled west until he reached a sea shore. There was a spring of sea water, possibly a geyser from under the sea throwing water up.
Verse 38 of Chapter 36 of the Holy Quran and its explanation in the Tradition quoted above simply paraphrases the following:
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The sun that rises from the east and sets in the west due to the rotation of the earth in its axis would reverse direction before the Day of Judgment. The rotation of the earth would be reversed; just before this reversal of the rotation of the earth, the permission to sun to continue its normal course would be denied. Because of this change in direction of rotation of the earth, the sun that used to rise in the east would rise in the west.
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Does light travel in a straight line or along a curve? To a school child it travels in a straight line. To a theoretical physicist, as light gets bent by the black hole, it sometimes travels along a curve. Is it right to argue that the teacher in school is wrong? A teacher fashions his message in such a way that it would be understood by the listener. Same applies to God Almighty. The Verses and the Tradition quoted above were instantly understood by the Companions of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, when science was no where. Now that God Almighty has guided mankind to attain fine details about the universe, we interpret the above in the light of our enhanced knowledge. Light travels in a straight line for a kid, whereas it travels in a curve for the researcher.
Posted by: Mohideen IbramshaDear sister Naseem,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah.
Thanks for giving the references. Please see “7. Consistency: Ever present test of authenticity,” in http://spaces.msn.com/deentech/ The contents of the above two Traditions do not seem to violate any information (very small indeed) that I know. The above two describe the events during the ‘Big Bang’ and to my humble mind beyond the pale of science.
I try to restrict the field of Tradition to the ones given in ALIM CD. They are: Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawood, Muwatta, Tirmidhi, Qudsi, and Fiqh-us-Sunnah. This is just to save my time and not search for a Tradition with one of the posters in a place that I do not have immediate access. That is why; I try to give a link to the quotes if there is a link. The link could be opened and my quote could be verified.
In the ALIM CD I performed a search on – sun moon – which returned 41 Traditions: 28 from Sahih Bukhari, 4 from Sahih Muslim, none from Abu Dawood, 4 from Muwatta, 1 Tirmidhi, none from Qudsi, and 4 from Fiqh-us-Sunnah. None of them refer to the process of creating the sun and the moon as given in the Traditions given by you. From among the 41, I would like to present the following 4 Traditions in two groups.
From http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=eclipse+ibrahim+sun&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all we have:
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(1) Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba: "The sun eclipsed in the life-time of Allah's Apostle on the day when (his son) ibrahim died. So the people said that the sun had eclipsed because of the death of ibrahim. Allah's Apostle said, "The sun and the moon do not eclipse because of the death or life (i.e. birth) of some-one. When you see the eclipse pray and invoke Allah." (Book #18, Hadith #153) (Sahih Bukhari)
(2) Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba : On the day of ibrahim's death, the sun eclipsed and the people said that the eclipse was due to the death of ibrahim (the son of the Prophet). Allah's Apostle said, "The sun and the moon are two signs amongst the signs of Allah. They do not eclipse because of someone's death or life. So when you see them, invoke Allah and pray till the eclipse is clear." (Book #18, Hadith #168) (Sahih Bukhari)
(3) Narrated Abu Bakra: In the life-time of the Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) the sun eclipsed and he went out dragging his clothes till he reached the Mosque. The people gathered around him and he led them and offered two Rakat. When the sun (eclipse) cleared, he said, "The sun and the moon are two signs amongst the signs of Allah; they do not eclipse because of the death of someone, and so when an eclipse occurs, pray and invoke Allah till the eclipse is over." It happened that a son of the Prophet called ibrahim died on that day and the people were talking about that (saying that the eclipse was caused by his death). (Book #18, Hadith #170) (Sahih Bukhari)
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The above three Traditions show that even during a day in which his son died, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, desired to guide his followers to the right path.
From http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=sun+moon+folded&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
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Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The sun and the moon will be folded up (deprived of their light) on the Day of Resurrection." (Book #54, Hadith #422) (Sahih Bukhari)
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The above Tradition possibly refers to the reverse of the Big Bang.
Allah knows best.
Posted by: Mohideen Ibramshahe earth is flat
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM
How are the worshippers aligned just next to the Holy Kabaa? In a circle. How are they aligned in the Masjid in Medina? In a straight line.
In mathematics, we derive the direction of a tangent by a process of finding the limit of the direction of two points on the curve as their distance becomes zero. The curve between two points on a curve very close to each other is a straight line.
When there were no satellite pictures and when the moon and the sun could be seen as circles, for a human without any aid, the earth is flat. This is because, a human cannot see beyond 5 miles or so due to the curvature of the earth. 5 miles compared to 5000 miles is indeed very small. Earth is flat at short distances, and is a sphere at long distances.
Again it is the question of a teacher using simple language to teach the student; it is not a question of ignorance of the teacher. How does light travel: straight or curved?
Posted by: Mohideen IbramshaAgain you try to posit how enlightened Muhammad was by demonstrating phenomenon through Western knowledge and Western science. Try not to mix the two because you really don't know what you are talking about. If Muhammad had truly been that great a teacher he could have explained things a little better--I find it curious that people all seemed to know what he was talking about at the time, but once science proved the ideas wrong--you simply changed the premise of your argument. You are completely illogical--don't mix science and religion, for the two don't go hand in hand.
I could go on and on about thermodynamics and quantum theory, but it is not for me to disprove Muhammad...it is my interest that his believers keep their idiocy and closed-mindedness to themselves. By the way, you have Christians who will drone on endlessly about how the Bible is right and science can prove it...and it all amounts to them WANTING to find religon factual. The only indisputable is observable reality--something that science is concerned with. If you want to go on thinking that Allah is behind it all, then fine--but don't think for an instance that lame-brain ideas posited by an ignorant mind 1,400 years ago make sense, because they don't.
I'm not saying all answers have been found in science, because they have not...there are plenty of things that scientists still fail to understand--however they, unlike thelogians, don't attempt to fill in the gaps with nonsense. Allah rubbed the moon with a celestial eraser and made it dim? Do you realize how stupid this sounds?
Posted by: EudaemonAllah (SWT) will forgive our past sins when we convert, but is this done only once? For example if one converts...can he/she deconvert...perform a sin and then reconvert to have this sin removed?
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM
Let us consider two Verses of the Holy Quran and their implications. From http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2&mac= we have:
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6.60: It is He who doth take your souls by night, and hath knowledge of all that ye have done by day: by day doth He raise you up again; that a term appointed be fulfilled; In the end unto Him will be your return; then will He show you the truth of all that ye did.
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and from http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=39&translator=2&mac= we find:
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39.42: It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.
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Let us consider the case of Salman Rushdie of the ‘Satanic Verses’ fame. He was a born Muslim. Sometime later, he renounced his faith and authored ‘Satanic Verses’. The Iranian clerics passed a fatwa of death on him. After a few years of living the life of a fugitive, he embraced Islam. He expected the fatwa to be eradicated. However nothing of that sort happened. Possibly because he wanted the security offered by the authorities again, he renounced Islam. He is living the life of a fugitive now. Can he embrace Islam again? Surely! When he does so, would his sins be forgiven? Yes, definitely.
ALLAH SWT knew his leaving Islam the first time when he slept that night after leaving Islam. ALLAH SWT knew that he came back to Islam, and again left Islam on the respective nights.
What about the one who being a Muslim desires to commit a crime and for that purpose renounces Islam, commit the crime, and then immediately embrace Islam again? The answer is found in http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=68&translator=2&mac=
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68.17: Verily We have tried them as We tried the People of the Garden, when they resolved to gather the fruits of the (garden) in the morning.
68.18: But made no reservation, ("If it be Allah.s Will").
68.19: Then there came on the (garden) a visitation from thy Lord, (which swept away) all around, while they were asleep.
68.20: So the (garden) became, by the morning, like a dark and desolate spot, (whose fruit had been gathered).
68.21: As the morning broke, they called out, one to another,-
68.22: "Go ye to your tilth (betimes) in the morning, if ye would gather the fruits."
68.23: So they departed, conversing in secret low tones, (saying)-
68.24: "Let not a single indigent person break in upon you into the (garden) this day."
68.25: And they opened the morning, strong in an (unjust) resolve.
68.26: But when they saw the (garden), they said: "We have surely lost our way:
68.27: "Indeed we are shut out (of the fruits of our labour)!"
68.28: Said one of them, more just (than the rest): "Did I not say to you, 'Why not glorify ((Allah))?'"
68.29: They said: "Glory to our Lord! Verily we have been doing wrong!"
68.30: Then they turned, one against another, in reproach.
68.31: They said: "Alas for us! We have indeed transgressed!
68.32: "It may be that our Lord will give us in exchange a better (garden) than this: for we do turn to Him (in repentance)!"
68.33: Such is the Punishment (in this life); but greater is the Punishment in the Hereafter,- if only they knew!
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In the above Verses Allah SWT preempted the evil persons. Likewise Allah SWT might take the life of that wicked person who left Islam on the night before he commits the crime. In that case, that person loses Paradise and is put in Hell. If Allah SWT has sanctioned the crime, He might allow the person to commit the crime and take the life of the criminal before the criminal becomes a Muslim again. Well, Allah SWT might indeed allow that person to become a Muslim again after committing the crime. If that person manages to become a Muslim again all his past sins would of course be forgiven. In all the three cases above, Allah SWT has the power to sanction them. ALLAH is the ultimate and He does what He chooses.
However once the Khilafath is established, it is expected that the apostate would be immediately imprisoned and released only if he embraces Islam again. If he refuses to embrace Islam again, he should be killed. This is to avoid chaos in society.
There is no contradiction in the paragraphs above. One describes the power of Allah SWT and the next describes the obligation of the Caliph.
Posted by: Mohideen IbramshaBrother of the Umma Mohideen,
Assalamau Laikum,
I want to thank you (unlike many of the ungrateful infedel) of the efforts that you have put in to try & answer my questions. You may well have taken much time and pleasure I hope to do your research. Brother Mohideen I am grateful for this and may Allah SWT make you a better muslim for it.
I must be honest though that unfortunately the answers themselves have not helped me much.
Many of the answers given do not satisfy me. I am no scientist, but for example, I think there is no real scientific evidence that the moon was ever a fiery ball (i.e. the moon was a sun as explained in Tabiri)...even at the big bang.
Can you see how I am so confused?
With respect to the sun setting in muddy waters you said "Dhul Qarnain traveled west until he reached a sea shore. There was a spring of sea water, possibly a geyser from under the sea throwing water up." ...and therefore he saw the sun set in muddy waters.
BUT THIS IS FROM OUR KORAN...our perfect book. I suppose what I am asking is "why did Allah not tell Mohd (saw) that the sun never sets?"...instead this observation has been included in as if the sun was *seen* to set & it was put in the Koran. Our Holy Koran is there to educate 1 billion+ people....do people REALLY belive that the sun sets...we know & you know that it doesn't.
Perhaps the real meaning to this is something different...maybe a lot more ABSTRACT but I am without the noor to see it.
Can you see how I am so confused?
My brother, daily I punish myself with doubt and recently since Anwer was ill I have prayed 5 times a DAY. Further I have promised to go to Hajj, but the muslim in Saudi will not let the Ahmadi go to Hajj.
Dearest brother, verily I am confused in mind, the muftis I talk to here know less than I.
My brother, be sure though that I will continue & find meaning but through abstraction...for looking through science does not help.
Allah give me strength to continue my abstract search & to continue dawa of our almost perfet religion.
Posted by: NaseemMohideen said: "If that person manages to become a Muslim again all his past sins would of course be forgiven. In all the three cases above, Allah SWT has the power to sanction them. ALLAH is the ultimate and He does what He chooses."
So Allah decides if a person should die, but expects his followers to act in his stead. If He is, indeed, all powerful--why does he rely on people to carry out His laws for Him? Use logic my friend...
You want truth? Muhammad wrote a bunch of jibberish down, you believe that the jibberish was sent by God. Therefore, if I can disprove the existence of God, then it would prove that Muhammad was a delusional liar--ah but the quandry is I would be saying that Jesus was a liar too (which I have no reason to do since HIS followers do me no harm). Also, even when faced with proof, you would be blind to it and say that I am trying to trick you away from your faith.
Traditionally scientists have not even approached the issue of whether or not God exists--why? Because it is up to the person who poses a statement to defend it and to present evidence of it.
For instance, you say that the moon sets in a pool--science has observed that the sun does not set, but the earth turns making it appear that the sun is moving. So you attempt to show that Muhammad was right by saying, "well, it appears to set--that is what he meant." Whatever... Then you go on by saying that if there are two dots close togehter on a curved line then the line is straight--no it's not, it's still curved my friend. Even a moron takes it for granted that the Earth is curved--but when Allah said it was flat, he was just saying this for demonstration purposes.
I'm reminded of a Monty Python skit--I believe it was in the Holy Grail... Arthur was asked how it could be that coconuts were "found" in England. Arthur is forced to explain how by INVENTING a story--which is easily proved false. So instead of saying that the story is indeed silly, he has to compound the silliness of the argument by inventing further. This is what you are doing my friend--Muhammad came up with the silly proposition to begin with and left it up to you to try and explain it. Keep explaining my friend, it makes you look all the more foolish.
Posted by: Eudaemonif there are two dots close togehter on a curved line then the line is straight--no it's not, it's still curved my friend.
Posted by: Eudaemon at April 4, 2006 04:21 PM
Please see http://www.answers.com/tangent&r=67. For immediate reference, we quote:
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tangent, in mathematics.
…For other curves and surfaces the tangent line at a given point P is defined as the limiting position, if such a limit exists, of a secant line through P and another point P′ on the curve or surface as P′ is allowed to approach P…
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I said the same thing in my words. The attempt by you and others is already - 1400 years back - commented upon as below. From http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=9&translator=2&mac=
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9.32: Fain would they extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
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Islam is the true religion. Come to it and benefit.
Posted by: Mohideen IbramshaIn mathematics a curved line is straighter and straighter as two points along that line grow closer and closer--this is your argument? They are never straight my friend--being close to straight is like being almost pregnant--either you are or you aren't.
It is true that it is sometimes useful to approximate curves as straight lines in mathematics. The same goes for certain laws of physics--we approximate gravitational pull as zero at certain distances depending on mass--but it is never zero at any distance for any mass. And I think you are saying that it was perfectly OK for Muhammad to approximate when describing the earth...but Muhammad did not say, "the earth is round, but for the purpose of this argument we shall say it is flat"--he said that it is flat.
You can't see it, but you are TRYING TO FIND a reason that Muhammad said what he did, because you cannot accept that he could have been wrong. What you are, in fact, saying is this: "sure the earth is not flat, but to an observor who only sees a little piece of it, it appears to be." This may explain why he THOUGHT it was flat--but it does not prove that it is or that Muhammad was correct in saying it is. Just admit he was wrong or that he was misinterpreted or that his words were not written down correctly (that there is at least some form of error in your texts) and we'll move on.
As far as the second statement...it seems that you are saying that Allah said that some people would not believe truth even though it is perfect...but as I've stated before the only certainty in this world is objective reality--though philosophers may even dispute this. Besides, when it comes to religion, there is NO OBJECTIVE truth. This is because certain things are accepted on faith alone. This is why it is pointless for me to ask you to prove that God exists.
Look, I could say something like, "years ago people lived on Mars and that because it grew hot with global warming from centuries of burning fossil fuels, Allah saw fit to see that the two last survivors were given Earth, so they and all the animals of Mars rode a spaceship to Earth--but with the proposition that we should take care of the earth and not allow global warming to happen again." See that I'm simply twisting the Biblical story of the flood to modern sensibilities--some people who are gullible would probably accept it as fact. And I could claim that it is true and claim to be a prophet...But by merely telling others to disprove that it happened and by not accepting their arguments or evidence to the contrary, it does not mean that I am correct. Believe it or not, similar doomsday prophesy was told during the cold war about nuclear energy by a few charlatans.
There have been many charlatans throughout history--most, thank goodness, were not believed. But still others were convincing enough to be believed...
Do I think that morality is important--yes. Do I think that generosity and kindness and peace and love for all are wonderful ideals--absolutely. Am I a prophet for saying that they are--no. Do I think you should accept that others may have their reasons for not believing the Qur'an is perfect (nevermind that they may be happy with their own religion or not having a religion at all)--I'm sure you know my answer. You see, it does not bother me that you believe what you do. You could go on believing that the earth is flat for all I care. But Muslims should not attempt to alter my society or my way of life by taking away my freedom to believe or disbelieve (or treating me differently for doing so). Maybe along with my believing that the earth is not flat or that the moon is not a fiery ball or that the Jews did not create or spread Aids or that the Jews do not have an earthquake machine--I just might believe that Islam doesn't seem all that peaceful and that it doesn't seem all that divinely inspired.
Posted by: EudaemonAssalamau-laikum all,
I have found this thread probably the most interesting in the 2 years I have been here. This has been brought about particularly by my Umma brother Mohideen in the mix.
Even though I am muslim, in the two years here I could NEVER bring about the deep type of Islamic viewpoint that my brother brings...so please Mohideen continue posting and thank you...may Allah SWT look upon you with much favour!
I know that you are true to our faith Mohideen and conservative...which is why I find it most interesting that questions raised by me were answered by you using (in the main) infedel developed science.
I compared your arguments to the excellent post provided by Eudaemon above. For ME the really telling thing was when he pointed out that "Muhammad did not say, "the earth is round, but for the purpose of this argument we shall say it is flat"--he said that IT IS FLAT.
My brother, Mohideen surely you will agree that the Koran is very decisive in every point, No where in it does it say in style or content "as an approximation to this assume that"
IT STATES THAT THIS IS SO AND THAT IS SO...END OF ARGUMENT...
SO.... PHEW .... HERE I GO ....POSSIBLY MAKING THE IMPORTANT STATEMENT IN MY LIFE (and perhaps condeming me to hellfire).
I THINK THAT SOME STATEMENTS OF THE KORAN ARE NOT TRUE.
This maybe because of interpetration on my part ....but even conservative muslims like and and the muftis say the same thing...so I don't know.....I just don't know....my head is spinning.
Brother Mohideen, ...let me say here & now that I AM STILL MUSLIM...and believe in ALLAH with all my might.....but I think it's OK to admit that the holy Koran is not perfect...that Mohd (saw) got a few things wrong.....I think admitting this infact makes me A BETTER MUSLIM.
The thing that I really fear (and still believe is that) once a muslim then Allah SWT incarinates you always as a muslim...and that because of my doubts I maybe condemned to hellfire for all eternity....
Allah SWT please forgive my forwarding and my big mouth!
Brother Mohideen I beg you to please still talk to me....and tell me more about punishments I may incur...
Posted by: NaseemDo I think you should accept that others may have their reasons for not believing the Qur'an is perfect (nevermind that they may be happy with their own religion or not having a religion at all)
Posted by: Eudaemon at April 5, 2006 02:19 AM
Here is the answer from the Holy Quran itself. From http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=2&mac= we have:
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Yusuf Ali 2.256: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
Shakir 2.256: There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Pickthal 2.256: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
M. Khan 2.256: There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghoot and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
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The right path is Islam. As regards my thinking that ‘the Holy Quran is perfect,’ please see “6. A test of our understanding of Islam,” in my blog http://spaces.msn.com/deentech/
Posted by: Mohideen IbramshaBrother of the Umma, Mohideen,
I read "6" on your impressive blog. It said
"If any Muslim feels that there is some inconsistency between a part of the Holy Quran and another part, it simply shows that the understanding of that person with regard to Islam is lacking."
Agreed...
Such a person must devote as much time as possible to study Islam until he / she understands that the apparent inconsistency is resolved.
This is difficulty for me! No matter how much I study....I cannot get away from Koran inaccuracies.....they just won't go away. If something is round, it cannot be flat. I DON'T KNOW HOW to resolve this. Your help in this regard will be helpful.
You say "A point to make now is that if any feels there is inconsistency do not blame self or others, but attempt further study and that Doubts when cleared lead to knowledge".
Unfortunately more reading is leading to further doubts in my mind.
You say "There is no harm in getting doubts".
Wow...that's a relief.
Posted by: Naseem- Mohideen
I feel you need to understand a bit more about proper logical arguments, how they should be posed and "inherent" results.
When forming arguments there are two ways in which you can argue--you can either use deductive or inductive reasoning. In case you don't know what these are, allow me to explain:
In order to use the deductive method, you must start with axioms, or general statements regarded as fact. Then you use these statements for which to argue their results--if your axioms are true, then everything that follows can be argued to be true. This method can be used in philosophy to a great degree because of the nature of man being somewhat predictable--I mean we are people, so everyone must know what it's like to be a person, right? However, when used to explain nature and the world or universe that surrounds us, there is far too much that we don't understand to form a generally accepted fact.
For example, Aristotle devised a method of scientific investigation using deductive reasoning. He would usually start with knowledge already accepted as fact--by reviewing former research done before him. He would then introduce his own arguments and solutions based on these accepted truths. But, as is often in science, if former research was faulty--his arguments would be faulty as well. Aristotle's arrogance was compounded when he would attempt to refute others' claims by deducing that results were obsurd (reductio ad absurdum--reducing something to absurdity). However, often when an opponent would use this same kind of argument against him, it made him and his students angry.
The alternative to deductive reasoning is inductive reasoning. This starts with observations of nature. If an idea conflicts with what happens in nature, the idea must be changed or thrown out. It follows that as more and more observations are made then the resulting arguments based on them will have a better foundation and become generally accepted. This method has come to be known as the scientific method, and it has given rise to many simple, yet powerful statements about how nature works.
When you argue that a religion is correct--you begin with the premise that it is fact and then you attempt to support it with evidence. This can lead to horrendous falsities. Science was convinced that the earth was the center of the solar system for centuries--not only because religion told us so, but because people like Aristotle said it was so. Even when faced with evidence to the contrary--religious authorities refuted the validity of any other argument. The Catholic Church refused to acknowledge that Galileo could have been right, and declared him a heretic. This is a huge danger inherent in religion imposing its viewpoint on humanity or in religion having authority to enforce its own dogma. It fails to acknowledge that differing viewpoints may be correct (it lacks humility).
Deductive reasoning can be used very effectively to argue the existence of God--and I will concede the POSSIBILITY of the existence of God due to the numerous seemingly valid arguments presented. In fact, most scientists are not athiests, despite what many religious adherents or secular humanists think. And I refuse to think that Islam cannot be reformed since Christianity was once dominated by religious authority and, thereby, strongly enforced dogmatic viewpoints, while now Christianity allows a plethora of ideas to exist.
I also will not regard Islam as not having value or that Muslims lack the ability to create or to invent (though it is difficult to hold this view if you review just about any list of scientific discoveries or great inventions). I feel the greatest reason for Muslims being held back in this regard is the lack of proper education and the lack of an Islamic reformation--and this is not a result of colonialism, as much as Muslim figureheads would like their followers to believe. In fact, Muslims display a great deal of drive and commitment and the number of Muslim professionals exposes any sort of conclusion about any lack of capacity for them to learn as a complete falacy. However, for as long as democracies in the Middle East (Iraq included) revert to simply voting in religious despots who would enforce dogma in the same fashion as the Catholic Church prior to reformation, the trend for conservatives and liberals alike to say that Islam cannot support true freedom (academic freedom included) will continue. And yes, this could continue to hold back the Muslim world from contributing to the advancement of mankind.
Posted by: EudaemonAlso being a woman ...our's prophet's (pbuh) marriage to Aiesha at the age of 6 disturbs me greatly....was there a need for this? Many muslims I have spoken to lie and say she was 18 but the Hadith clearly talk about her playing with dolls. Allah forgive my need to question this.
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM
Dear sister Naseem,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah.
Before I attempt to answer the above question, permit me to answer the following question:
How could Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, adopt a person as his son, get him married, and then after that son divorces his wife, marry her? How could a father marry his own daughter-in-law?
There are two issues involved in the above question:
1. Is adoption the same as begetting a child?
2. Can a father marry the divorced / widowed wife of his son?
The answer to the second question above is an emphatic no on the basis of 4:23 from http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=2&mac=
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4:23 Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-
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See that there is no restriction regarding sex between the son and his ex-wife. Even if the son has not had any sex with his ex-wife, the father is forbidden to marry her. Please notice the contrast with regard to the daughter of an ex-wife.
Still Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, married the wife of his adopted son after she completed the waiting period. This is to establish without any shred of doubt that an adopted child is not the same as a biological child.
Now let us turn to the marriage between mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, and Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. He did infact marry her when she was 6 years old and consummated the marriage when she was 9 years old. Did he marry her of his own desire? No. It was preordained as from http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=true+twice+dream&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
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Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle said (to me), "You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, 'If this dream is from Allah, He will cause it to come true.' " (Book #62, Hadith #15) (Sahih Bukhari)
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Why did he do that? Can this quote be a pointer? From http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/07/20040716-11.html we have:
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U.S. law enforcement has documented cases of Latvian girls trafficked into sexual slavery in Chicago, or Ukrainian girls trafficked in Los Angeles, and Maryland, or Thai, Korean, Malaysian and Vietnamese girls trafficked in Georgia, or and Mexican girls trafficked in California, New Jersey and here in Florida. Many of the victims are teenagers, some as young as 12 years old.
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In a world where a teenage girl is forced into sex, what would be the plight of a teenage wife? After all everyone agrees that sex with one’s wife is legal. What happens if that wife is pre-pubescent? To give guidance to Muslims regarding such pre-pubescent wives, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, married mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, at the age of six and consummated the marriage when she reached puberty at the age of nine. The derived rules are:
1. No sex with a pre-pubescent wife.
2. As legal sex is permitted with wife or which the right hand possesses only, absolutely no sex with any pre-pubescent girl.
3. For the current world, no child sex at all.
Doesn’t Allah know that mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, would come of age when she becomes nine years old? Why can’t she be married then so that the waiting is not there? If such were the case, there would be no guidance regarding the pre-pubescent orphan girls without any relative who just cannot marry her like father, uncle, or brother. Remember that Islam never allows a girl to be a destitute whatever be the age. Thus, a pre-pubescent orphan girl could be married by a Muslim to give her shelter. Such a husband should wait her puberty to commence to have sex with her.
Alright, if we need a rule stating that no sex with a pre-pubescent girl even if she is a wife, why marry at the age of six? Why not eight? The answer is that it is a demonstration of the prophetic nature of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
It should be understood that a girl could reach puberty at any age. From http://youngest_mother.tripod.com/ we have:
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… When her child was born by Caesarean section in May 1939, Medina made medical history, and is still the youngest known mother in the world.
… Doctor Lozada has conducted very detailed studies since the diagnostic of pregnancy which aroused much curiosity in the country; he took an x-ray of the child and her baby, established a diagnostic of the fetal situation, observed the state of functionality of the little mother who had begun menstruating at the age of 8 months. …
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Consider the emotional state of the husband who cannot have sex with his wife as she is not yet ready biologically. It is better to keep this period of agony as small as possible. Here the Arabic language plays a part. In Arabic there are words for the singular, dual, and the plural. If Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, married mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, at the age of seven, the word used would correspond to the dual; if at the age of eight the word would represent the singular. The minimum number of years that mandates the use of the word for plural in Arabic is three. Thus, to a believer, this marriage at the age of six to a pre-pubescent girl, and the waiting of three years mandating the plural so that in future husbands of pre-pubescent girls wait for any number of years before having sex with their wives is indeed a demonstration of prophesy. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, has lived by his prophesy.
Allah knows best.
Posted by: Mohideen Ibramshayou are a conservative muslim
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM
Dear sister Naseem,
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah.
I believe I have attempted to answer all the questions raised by you at 10.58 am on April 3, 2006.
Kindly do not add any adjective to any Muslim. I am a Muslim; nothing more, nothing less Inshah Allah. Kindly permit me to repeat: do not splinter the Ummah by using adjectives like conservative, liberal, modern, Hanafi, Shafee, Maliki, Ahmadi etc. We are one Ummah and we are Muslims.
A number of personal works might keep me occupied for a number of days. Until then, may Allah SWT help you in your dawa.
Was Salaam
Posted by: Mohideen IbramshaMohideen said: "U.S. law enforcement has documented cases of Latvian girls trafficked into sexual slavery in Chicago, or Ukrainian girls trafficked in Los Angeles, and Maryland, or Thai, Korean, Malaysian and Vietnamese girls trafficked in Georgia, or and Mexican girls trafficked in California, New Jersey and here in Florida. Many of the victims are teenagers, some as young as 12 years old."
If you don't mind my asking--what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Stay germain, please. Why do Muslims attempt to excuse bad behavior by demonstrating that it happens in the West--don't you think we consider it bad?
If you are trying to argue that Muhammad was being kind to the girl by marrying her and having sex with her when she was nine, you are crazy. Why couldn't she be adopted? Was she not still a child? Should she not still have been raised as one? And you go on to say that Muhammad was forced to in order to fulfill a silly prophesy? Why was she married to his adopted son anyway? Well--heck, I sort of like this whole prophet idea...I could probably have lots of prophesies that would make it all right to have loads of sex with as many people as I want and live as debauched and depraved as I want--oh yeah, except that I have morals and it would be WRONG.
Posted by: Eudaemon- Mohideen
Below is an entreaty that Sir Francis Bacon made to King James in 1620. Note that he is sincere in his admiration of God and that he believes it not a sin to seek knowledge through scientific inquiry--rather that, due to the infinite possibilities to better man's plot and to provide an unending progress and generosity to mankind, it is a duty for learned and intellectual people to inquire further about nature and of man's place in it. Far from an athiest or someone who is seeking to disprove the existence of God, Sir Francis Bacon argues perfectly why religion or any other authority ought to encourage free-thought. The full quote can be found here: http://www.constitution.org/bacon/instauration.html
For my own part at least, in obedience to the everlasting love of truth, I have committed myself to the uncertainties and difficulties and solitudes of the ways and, relying on the divine assistance, have upheld my mind both against the shocks and embattled ranks of opinion, and against my own private and inward hesitations and scruples, and against the fogs and clouds of nature, and the phantoms flitting about on every side, in the hope of providing at last for the present and future generations guidance more faithful and secure. Wherein if I have made any progress, the way has been opened to me by no other means than the true and legitimate humiliation of the human spirit. For all those who before me have applied themselves to the invention of arts have but cast a glance or two upon facts and examples and experience, and straightway proceeded, as if invention were nothing more than an exercise of thought, to invoke their own spirits to give them oracles. I, on the contrary, dwelling purely and constantly among the facts of nature, withdraw my intellect from them no further than may suffice to let the images and rays of natural objects meet in a point, as they do in the sense of vision; whence it follows that the strength and excellence of the wit has but little to do in the matter. And the same humility which I use in inventing I employ likewise in teaching. For I do not endeavor either by triumphs of confutation, or pleadings of antiquity, or assumption of authority, or even by the veil of obscurity, to invest these inventions of mine with any majesty; which might easily be done by one who sought to give luster to his own name rather than light to other men's minds. I have not sought (I say) nor do I seek either to force or ensnare men's judgments, but I lead them to things themselves and the concordances of things, that they may see for themselves what they have, what they can dispute, what they can add and contribute to the common stock. And for myself, if in anything I have been either too credulous or too little awake and attentive, or if I have fallen off by the way and left the inquiry incomplete, nevertheless I so present these things naked and open, that my errors can be marked and set aside before the mass of knowledge be further infected by them; and it will be easy also for others to continue and carry on my labors. And by these means I suppose that I have established forever a true and lawful marriage between the empirical and the rational faculty, the unkind and ill-starred divorce and separation of which has thrown into confusion all the affairs of the human family.
Wherefore, seeing that these things do not depend upon myself, at the outset of the work I most humbly and fervently pray to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, that remembering the sorrows of mankind and the pilgrimage of this our life wherein we wear out days few and evil, they will vouchsafe through my hands to endow the human family with new mercies. This likewise I humbly pray, that things human may not interfere with things divine, and that from the opening of the ways of sense and the increase of natural light there may arise in our minds no incredulity or darkness with regard to the divine mysteries, but rather that the understanding being thereby purified and purged of fancies and vanity, and yet not the less subject and entirely submissive to the divine oracles, may give to faith that which is faith's. Lastly, that knowledge being now discharged of that venom which the serpent infused into it, and which makes the mind of man to swell, we may not be wise above measure and sobriety, but cultivate truth in charity.
And now, having said my prayers, I turn to men, to whom I have certain salutary admonitions to offer and certain fair requests to make. My first admonition (which was also my prayer) is that men confine the sense within the limits of duty in respect of things divine: for the sense is like the sun, which reveals the face of earth, but seals and shuts up the face of heaven. My next, that in flying from this evil they fall not into the opposite error, which they will surely do if they think that the inquisition of nature is in any part interdicted or forbidden. For it was not that pure and uncorrupted natural knowledge whereby Adam gave names to the creatures according to their propriety, which, gave occasion to the fall. It was the ambitious and proud desire of moral knowledge to judge of good and evil, to the end that man may revolt from God and give laws to himself, which was the form and manner of the temptation. Whereas of the sciences which regard nature, the divine philosopher declares that "it is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but it is the glory of the King to find a thing out." Even as though the divine nature took pleasure in the innocent and kindly sport of children playing at hide-and-seek, and vouchsafed of his kindness and goodness to admit the human spirit for his playfellow at that game. Lastly, I would address one general admonition to all — that they consider what are the true ends of knowledge, and that they seek it not either for pleasure of the mind, or for contention, or for superiority to others, or for profit, or fame, or power, or any of these inferior things, but for the benefit and use of life, and that they perfect and govern it in charity. For it was from lust of power that the angels fell, from lust of knowledge that man fell; but of charity there can be no excess, neither did angel or man ever come in danger by it.
Posted by: EudaemonIt's funny to contrast the difference between how children excuse their wrongdoing, with how Muhammad did. Children will often say, "the devil made me do it." While Muhammad said, "God Almighty said to do it." Think about that for a minute...
Posted by: EudaemonI'm guessing, because of the way arranged marriages typically work in backwards societies, that once the marriage took place between Aisha and Muhammad's adopted son--her parents would not take her back when his son divorced her (what grounds he doesn't provide). This is indicative of the "disgrace" that backwards societies apply to women who are "used goods." Her parents wouldn't take her back...essentially leaving her an orphan. But since she was 6 at the time--a bit young by civilized standards--she wasn't defiled Muhammad and saw her as therefore desirable as a mate (again, if she were deflowered I'm sure he would have been fine with her being destitute--another backwards viewpoint).
The problem I have with the scenario is this: if Muhammad was divining what was right and wrong, why was it beyond his comprehension that a reasonable solution would be to adopt her as a daughter or to tell her parents and all of the society at the time that their customes regarding marriage and women were bad and backward? If God were speaking to him, why didn't He suggest that Muhammad should teach them that the backwards ways were wrong, fundamentally? Mohideen, you say that there is a different standard that is applied today--why is this so? Is it because the standard that Muhammad applied was wrong? Are we wrong to regard girls who are 6 or 9 to be too young for marriage? Is it wrong to have arranged marriages--since women are often regarded as cattle (with their value assigned by how many cows they're worth) to become "property" of the man to do his bidding, etc.? If Muhammad was divining God's will why didn't God tell him that it is wrong for people to be treated differently or that slavery is wrong or that people of different ethnicities or faiths should be equal? Did God intend for peace to be elusive until only one voice was accepted--if so by what standard did he apply when he picked Muhammad, who obviously had his issues? How can society be expected to take Muhammad's words as truth--by what measure can we apply his words as actually coming from God when we have other people claiming or who have claimed to be prophets? How do you know what he said was right and how can you expect others to conform? Even if people believe in God and believe in standards of right and wrong, how do we know Muhammad was the only person to have received God's message in its entirety? How do we know that Muhammad wasn't biased or errant in anything he said? In effect, how do we know he was a prophet at all?
Like I've said before--religion has never been an Objective Truth, for there's no such thing. Things have to be accepted on faith alone and it's unreasonable to expect everyone to share your same view. I may watch a movie and think it's great--while others may find it aweful...wouldn't it be unreasonable to say that God said the movie is good so you must believe it is good? I feel that for the most part the concept of right and wrong are universal and that morals are conceived and received by all men from either a shared history or possibly from God. But to what degree we should expect that God has told us how to enforce these standards is debatable. Reason suggests that if man can learn to be good and learn to be bad that a sinner can reform himself--that there is almost no reason to end life where there remains the possibility for salvation or perfection of the human spirit, if such a thing is real. Reason suggests that people should be treated equally. Reason suggests that young girls should not be married or defiled. How can something that is regarded as truth be contrary to reason?
Posted by: Eudaemon- Mohideen
What do you seek to establish by showing that Islam is growing? Do you honestly think that it's doing so because it is attractive? Or could it possibly be that it's primarily due to the abnormally low birth rates in the West? If you want to actually show that the growth is by attractiveness--i.e. people are coming to the faith voluntarily, you'll have to do better than that.
If Islam is indeed the fastest growing religion, and it is sincerely winning the hearts and minds of people--then why is it that Muslims feel so threatened of outside thought and religious teaching? If Muslims are so convinced that their religion is true, why do they insist that it not be directly compared to other religion on equal grounds--let the best religion win?
I will tell you why--because this so-called global jihad or struggle against non-believers is not actually grounded in anything other than penis envy. Well, come on boys--let's drop trow and get this over with. In an actual contest you are afraid you will lose--so you've got to stack the deck in your favor. In many Muslim countries it is against the law to evangelize the Christian faith--why do you think this is? Can you find in your holy books where it says to outlaw Christian evangelism? It's because you feel threatened--you feel as though perhaps when directly compared, people might actually leave the Muslim faith out of acknowledgement that on ideals alone and on principles alone Christianity wins out. I'm not a Christian, but I recognize a superior set of ideals when I see it... There is no mistaking that Christianity has given rise to the greatest birth of invention and of knowledge and of wisdom the likes of which this earth and our humanity has not seen before. This is yet another source of Muslim envy toward the West. Well, since you are bound by religion from joining us in principle, you seek to destroy us by making us in your image. Well--I probably speak for many freedom loving people when I say--piss off and take your "truth" elsewhere...you see, we already have one.
Posted by: EudaemonIn these pages there was an assertion that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, prophesied nothing. If as you say, the number of baptisms is increasing, it is the effect of the following Tradition from http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=Medina+snake&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
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Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Verily, Belief returns and goes back to Medina as a snake returns and goes back to its hole (when in danger)." (Book #30, Hadith #100) (Sahih Bukhari)
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This is one of the approaches of the Day of Judgment. In the approach of the Day of Judgment, Islam would shrink and return to Medina and its environs. It is possible that the shrinking of Islam has started. Having said the above, we love to state the following Tradition also. This is found in http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=truth+hour+west&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
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It has been narrated by Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The people of the west will continue to triumphantly follow the truth until the hour is established. (Book #020, Hadith #4722) (Sahih Muslim)
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That is, the west that seems to severely criticize Islam now, would embrace Islam when it recognizes the truth, and then they would not leave it until the Day of Judgment.
Allah knows best.
Posted by: Mohideen IbramshaIf in the Islamic faith, as in the Christian faith, apocryphal literature serves the same purpose, then it is generally regarded as a rallying point for which believers continue their faith and hope during times of persecution. I don't doubt that believers take apocryphal literature very seriously--as they should. But it should be tempered, because there are warmongers who would love to do their "duty" in ensuring that Biblical Armageddon actually comes to pass. This could be disastrous since truthfully no one knows when (or if) it will actually occur.
As I've said, there are Christians who believe that the final battle between good and evil will be between the Christians (good) and the Muslims (evil). It is a very small minority who feel this way, but the idea is out there. I feel this sets a dangerous stage for which to conduct international politics--for where is the foundation of trust. The vast majority of Americans don't feel this way, but if the trend for people to become more religious (on both Muslim and Christian sides) then the pendulum may sway even further to the right and peace and stability for all could be jeopardized. It would, in fact, become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Imagine the aweful feeling that mankind would feel if such a calamity were allowed to ensue, and such bloodshed and violence did not actually beckon Christ's return, but was for nothing. It is really pathetic that people look forward to such trying times because they feel that they would be rewarded...how selfish is that? Like the supposed martyrs who are not defenders but offenders, against peace and for continued violence and bloodshed. Why must religion be motivated by selfishness and fear? And people wonder why many have doubts?
Posted by: Eudaemon